Israel's right to Defend

[BeBMan]

Do we at least all agree that Iran has the right to defend itself?

Of course they have, like everyone else.

But they're not really a benevolent actor or just a victim in the ME. Having proxy forces in third states to harrass or openly attack others is something Iran did for years, if not decades. And this is hardly to help Palestinians, more about expanding their own influence.

I don't like Netanyahu, or some of the more fringe folks in his gov. But I also do not have sympathy for Iran's regime.

If we need more WarZ and if they solve anything sufficiently is another question of course.

[Uncle Sparky]

Please explain how Israel is not a proxy for the US.

[Uncle Sparky]

Well, tRump left the G7 in Canada early (I'm sure he'll be missed) to fly back to Washington. tRump just posted "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER!" I guess th US is becoming an Islamic Republic. Either that or tRump may need to pull American troops out of American cities.and ship them to Viet-man (oops, Iran).

[Bereta_Eder]

sloow and people like him have zero difference from the average nazi german citizen that supported the extermination of jews

[Bereta_Eder]

Israel shows remarkable restraint every day.

There is no isreal.

There are american weapons killing muslim children

[SlowwHand]

No, there is no Isreal.

[Uncle Sparky]

Israeli tank fire kills at least 59 in Gaza crowd trying to get food, medics say. tRump cannot understand why he can't simply do that...

[Bereta_Eder]

At this point Israel only exists as a spear head of the primarily american pressence in the middle east. The moment it will lose suppoort from the US, it's gone.

If one exists because of the other, the genocide it commits, it's not it but the other.

Also there is a gross miscalculation done from the clown at the white house. Iran has the backing of russia which has the backing from china. It can turn israel to ash. it is Iran that is showing remarkable restrain for the time being.

Meanwhile israelis are getting a taste of their own medicine with all the dead and wounded from the attacks. And it is only the beggining. US "power" is a joke at this part of the world if china wants to extert influence. which it doesn't to a degree that will turn israel to ash for now.

[Ming]

Maybe if the Muslims decided to stop advocating genocide against Israel and stopped killing them every chance they get, there actually might be a chance for peace. But until then, Israel has a right to defend themselves, just like any other country. But I guess if somebody attacked your country, you would just roll over and play dead and say something stupid like you deserved it because you aren't a real country.

[Uncle Sparky]

I'll let you know when tRump tries to annex Canada... he talks about it almost every day.
Actually, I won't tell you. You might read it elsewhere though.

[Uncle Sparky]

"But I guess if somebody attacked your country, you would just roll over and play dead and say something stupid like you deserved it because you aren't a real country." Are you talking about Israelis, Palestinians, or both?
I don't remember either side saying that... please post quotes.

[Bereta_Eder]

The whole thing started because the brits gave land that didn't belong to them but to the palestiunians to the israelis.

Muslims didn't wake up one fine morning and said we are going to be hitler.

also the fact that more than 5 million muslims have died since 2003 mainly because of the west doesn't bode well for the narrative of the foam at the mouth muslim against israel

not to say anything about the palestinians proper. that have been killed for many more decades

[Dauphin]

The whole thing started because the brits gave land that didn't belong to them but to the palestiunians to the israelis.

You make it sound like the UN was not there in 1947 and that the holocaust and pogroms never occurred.

[Uncle Sparky]

Several ethic groups in the Americas were intentionally wiped out by Europeans. Should we give their survivors western Europe (especially UK) to compensate?
Also, how many Palestinians (or if it's easier to count, Muslims) were in the Nazzi party? Not retorical - I'd like to know.

[Geronimo]

that's a pretty good analogy Uncle Sparky apart from some bizarre details. The land given to the survivors obviously wouldn't be in Europe it would be in the Americas. I know some people who advocate that actually.

[Dauphin]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of my statement, which has no value judgement of what should have happened. My point was that 1) Britain didn't do the deed alone and 2) Jewish populations moved to the area now known as Israel in large numbers in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Agitation and creation of a Jewish state was not an act in isolation, and neither was the conflict that occurred at its creation. The Jewish population grew from 2% in 1800 to about 14% when WW1 started, 20% just as the Nazis came to power, and 30% by the end of WW2. I'm not particularly educated on this topic, but would be willing to believe a liberation movement would exist and potentially very similar outcomes would occur no matter what the great powers did in 1947.

[Bereta_Eder]

who controled the UN?

and why should the palestinians made to pay for what europeans did

[Ming]

Gee... that area has been under dispute for a far longer time than that.
The reality is, Israel exists NOW. And they have the right to defend themselves.
If somebody attacks, they respond. So maybe the lesson to be learned is, DON'T THREATEN OR ATTACK THEM

[Uncle Sparky]

Then I guess you are in favour of the US arming both sides, but charging the Muslims. Make America Great!

[Bereta_Eder]

If you are in an occupied gheto you have no option but to attack.

The way I understand it is that israelis steal land. it is normal to fight back. The bad thing is that they get the backing from the US. Why? Now there is no oil to be had from the middle east at least not of any concern to the US.

Or the US is really a theocratic fundamentalist society that believes the bible. There is no other explanation

Palestinians attack not because they hate jews but because Israelis steal their land and they are used by third players for their onw end but what is just remains clear.


I am not playing holier than thou. Greece is probbaly the most solid european ally Israel has right now but f the greek gov in that regard

[Ming]

Maybe if they agreed that Israel had the right to exist instead of their river to the sea BS, they wouldn't live in an occupied gheto.
Israel has the right to defend themselves. If the Palestinians would agree to live in peace and let Israel exist, most of the problems could be solved.
But instead, the rabid terrorists that rule over them won't let that happen, and the people that suffer the most are their own people.

[Uncle Sparky]

Do your own research. Bezalel Smotrich, Israeli Minister of Finance, and Minister in charge of the West Bank has served time in Israeli prisons for inciting violence against Palestinians and called for... Wait! You look it up. Why believe me?

[Bereta_Eder]

I think that chant "from river to the sea" is done by silly milenials or how are they called?

I think that palestinians proper (not some bored waste of space westerners (I include greeks in this) never had the chant from river to the sea but saw their lands being taken over by israeli settlers

and we have to be clear that all of israel's force rests on the US.

You say that israel exists NOW, I say that the US support for Isreal exists NOW.

Israel exists becaue of the US. I don't know why but it reflects bad on the US


Would it be possible for peace to be achieved if palestinians had a more compromising leadership? Or was israel's far right wing expansionism always a dynamite on the foundations of peace?

I don't pretend to know. But there is something called "imperial overstretch" and I think this is what the US is doing now in Israel. If britain (who said she will not defend isreal) or france (who said she will defend israel) get on board and defend tghe commercial sea routes then this will have minumum impact on the west (thinking of europe)


but isreal has wreacked so much havoc inj innocent civilians I can't imagine a way that can be passified,

[Bereta_Eder]

meanwhile isrealis are buying up real estate in Greece like fresh popcorn on a cinema premiere.
they are terified and seeking a safe harbour.
of course they are welcomed as are palestinian refugees welcomed.

and there is a huge israeli tourism going on in greece.

there were some protests against the israeli state. on some occasions the pro palestinian protestors came head to head with the israeli tourists.

it was interesting

(but not one nose bled)