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They are intentionally killing women and children using YOUR WEAPONS!!!
Using your cluster munition!!!
(Which you have considered to be a war crime, before you gave them such)
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Using your cluster munition!!!
(Which you have considered to be a war crime, before you gave them such)Last edited by Serb; August 19, 2023, 04:46.-
Russia is also using cluster munitions, so I don't get your anger.
Also, and critically, Ukraine is using cluster munitions in their own country through their own volition. Russia is using cluster munitions while invading another country. Big difference.
Never mind about the millions of mines that you have haphazardly dropped all over the place.
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Especially, when rape is fake and done for Western cameras.Originally posted by Berzerker View PostComment
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We save people, not rape them. Nazis do rape!Comment
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Remember, Plato:
"If Canada is divided, so is Quebec!!!"
Last edited by Serb; August 19, 2023, 11:34.Comment
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And since you are an American idiot and won't get the meaning, I will rephrase that for you:
"If USSR is divided, so is Ukraine"Comment
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To some extent I actually agree with this. Invasion was a pretty stupid way of trying to resolve differences. I guess, in the end, it will end internal divisions in Ukraine...once the Orcs are repelled back to their legally recognized borders. Of course, if Russia was truly interested in peace in the Donbas, they never would have subverted the region 9 years ago. I think it's obvious at this point that reconciliation wasn't the plan.
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How was our proxy war in Afghanistan not our fault? Most important of all, where did I say there was no war in Afghanistan prior to our war in Afghanistan?Originally posted by Geronimo View Post
So now you discover nuance eh? Yes, Soviet Afghanistan was a proxy war. not a 3/3 US war as you constantly claim. Most important of all, the US did not start any part or stage of the soviet Afghanistan war. Soviets and locals started all of the fighting. The US offered assistance with training and weapons that, adjusting for inflation (~$47 billion USD 2023), was actually similar to the USSR level of military aid to Vietnam (about $44 billion USD 2023). Actually, 85% of millitary aid to the mujahedeen came from non US sources. So how in the hell do you ascribe the casualties in both wars as 3/3 belonging to the US?
If the Donbas and Crimea don't want to be rule by Azov they are lucky that Azov has never ruled them or anybody else.
You offered a special interpretation of coup as any change in power that occurs even in part due to a violent act. You even interpret that as meaning that if a president if framed for a sniper attack on civilians and loses power then any government that later takes power is a coup. I'd say that's a very special definition of coup.
Whether or not you support Assad you can't claim that a coup absolves Russia of all culpability in starting a war in the Donbas while pretending that the US owns 3/3 of casualties in Syria for a civil war that erupted when Assad assumed power in Syria through ongoing violence.
Be consistent Berz. That's all I ask. And no, I don't mean be consistently inconsistent.
Prior to Russia's intervention. We were arming terrorists to destroy Afghanistan so Russia would intervene and Jimmy could boycott the Olympics (another effing sociopath). Imagine that, instead of arming Afghans we imported radicals. I'm surprised Jimmy Carter didn't call them moderate rebels. Proxy wars dont work without tribes. We find the meanest tribe available and the folks back home dont care since their kids aint dying.Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1992, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The mujahideen were also supported by Britain's MI6, who conducted their own separate covert actions. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups, including groups with jihadist ties, that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Soviet-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan administration since before the Soviet intervention.[1]​
The reason the Nazis didn't rule the Donbas is because the people living there defended themselves. Azov and the right wing have run Ukraine since 2014. They drove the leader from office and got their officials put into powerful positions and sent militias east to kill protesters. So will you compel eastern Ukrainians to live under their rule? That would be the situation if Ukraine wins. I didn't offer a special interpretation of coup, I used the definition in the dictionary. I have repeatedly said the massacre was the coup. The guy ran for his life for god's sake. Nazis murder 100 people, leader flees, legislature codifies the coup. Well, sort of... I dont know if the vote was legal but I do know the guy was framed and they probably knew it and a court would decide in his favor, thats why they buried the investigation. Better than buried by snipers. Yup, Nazis run around murdering people and we call it democracy. Sir, nothing to see here, move along...
We armed terrorists to destroy Syria. Your argument appears to be thats okay because Assad killed protesters and therefore we are not to blame for all the people killed by our effort to destroy Syria. I thought he inherited his father's throne/regime. Russia didn't start the war in the Donbas. The people living there didn't shoot at Russians, they were shooting at Azov. Kinda telling, no?
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Honestly, Plato,
Imagine for one second that half of the Mexico is historically populated by Americans, that the half of the Mexico is historically American lands and that the half of entire population of Mexico are ethnically Amercians, who have been constantly presecuted by the central authoritiees. With time pass, the things are going better and better:
Russia initiates, supplies and supports a coup and overthrows a legitimate democrtically elected president (whose only fault was that he was something in between USA and Russia and didn't became a complete Russian puppet). Then the new authorities ban English language and close all English schools and so on and when American populated part of Mexico revolts against this illegal coup, the junta sends an army to kill them.
And junta actually start to killing them in thousands with their bombs, tanks and guns!
Moreover, then Mexico publically declares that it will join a military alliance lead by Russia and proclaims that American are not humans at all and should be exterminated and it will place Russian weapon system on their territory to fulfill that goal.
So, the question is:
How many HOURS USA would have tolerated this sh!t before bringing Mexico to the Dark Ages and kill millions of those insane idiots?
Russia has tolerated this for at least 8 years and suggested a peacefull solution until the last moment!
So, FYI!​Comment
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You call an abundant democracy a country where all opposition parties are banned, where all opposition media are closed, where the main Christianty brach is banned and thousands of churches ond monasteries are seized, where you could be captured, tortured and killed without any trial, where you could be easily tied to the pole, pull down your pants and publically executed you for just SPEAKING YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE!!!
A highly Nazified country where MAIN National heroes are Nazi collaborators, responsible for extermination of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jews, Russians, Poles, Gypsies during the WW2.
You support a ****** Nazis, because you are Nazis yourselves!
Period!
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Rewind the tape for 100-150 years ago and become a Nation of brilliant engineers once again, instead of keep being a Nation of finansial blood sucking parasites and World's number one bully and murderer!
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It is still true that most of the world's technological advances still come from the U.S. Why do you think there are so many foreign students in U.S. universities? How many millions of foreigners are trying to get into Russian universities? If anything, it is your repressed society that has fallen off. Russia used to be a land of great theoretical thinkers...now, not so much.
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You will have to do it anyway, if you won't trigger a nuclear war of course.
Because that is how a History works!
Your time as World's parasite is over, the rest of the World IS SICK OF YOU!!!
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Russia will be defeated in Ukraine. If Russia wants to cease to exist in its current form, then it should go nuclear now. That will be the final outcome of a nuclear war. Funny how the world is "sick of us" and we keep getting countries that want to ally with us as Russia has made unwarranted aggression popular again. Russia is losing political traction around the world and having to bribe and beg countries like Iran and North Korea to help it. It seems that what the world is "sick of" is your brutal, murderous, land grabbing dictator.
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Get back to your roots America and become a normal country of hard working talanted people!Comment
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I live right in the middle of the U.S. I am surrounded by normal, hard working people. It is bad enough that you believe Putin's propaganda, but equally disturbing that you believe the political posturing of U.S. political parties that Americans are somehow not meeting an artificial definition of "normal"
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No I said the constitutionality was legitimately debatable and I said it fell into an area of constitutional ambiguity. I said that legal scholars thought the constitutional grounds for the route to removal of the president that the Ukrainian Verkhovna Rada resorted to using with were dubious. Not illegal. I Also speculated that the convenient disappearance of just enough voters to deny the quorum for straightforward removal by impeachment was extremely suspicious, especially in light of the fact that all of the votes from those who were left to vote were unanimously anti-Yanukovych. Berz it was you who quoted my post and said "in other words illegal then."Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
The difference between constitutionally dubious and illegal is huge. especially in this case. Calling the removal illegal is about as shaky as calling the swearing in of President Bush illegal on the basis of Bush v. Gore.
What happened Berz was a constitutional crisis arising from constitutional ambiguity was resolved politically and entirely through legal channels. not violently.
Also, If you persist in calling the removal process illegal I hope you will be consistent and call just about every initiative Trump took in association with the 2020 presidential election from election night to at least 06Jan2021 illegal as well. The legal basis for doing so is far more robust.
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I'm glad you've stuck around 23 years to discuss. Not often civilly I have to admit, but you still discuss.Originally posted by Serb View Post
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What cities did the Ukrainians hit with massed artillery?
Was it ok for Grozny to be hit with massed artillery? You hold up Grozny as a literal shining example because after it was flattened and the local leadership subverted to Moscow, Moscow funded a huge rebuilding. Was Ukraine ever given a chance to do any huge rebuilding in Donbas. Well, not anywhere the separatists kept control of. But the Ukrainians did regain control of Mariupol, with plenty of Azov military formation credit for the job. They turned Mariupol into a gleaming gem like Grozny. If they just wanted to kill ethnic Russians, why would they spruce up one of their largest cities like that? Next, Russia then turned it into a totally destroyed rubble field. Nice job. Russia is nowhere near rebuilding it to the level it was February 2021.
One week before the February 24, 2022, 2500 Ukrainian troops were massed to start a heavy bombardment of Donbass cities. What an incredible joke. Do you not see that in that same time frame over 100,000 (over 200k in hindsight) Russian troops were massed to start heavy bombardment of all Ukrainian cities anywhere near any part of Russia, Belarus, or the Donbass? Who is going to believe the Ukrainians wanted to attack the Donbas but would wait until there were 100K+ massed Russian forces all around them to do it? That would be like if right before the 2003 invasion of Iraq Americans had been shown coverage of massed attacks by Iraqi forces on Kuwaiti citizens by 2500 massed Iraqi forces. Who believe such crap? And of course that's not even considering that Iraq would have no authorization to operate into another country while everything you accuse Ukraine of was within the legal internationally recognized borders of Ukraine and would be on a much smaller scale than what happened to Grozny. Please Serb...
A law existed for decades to ban the Kurdish language in Turkey and nobody here cared. Now we're supposed to be bothered by your claim of a similar law against Russian in Ukraine? But let's examine the legal situation over that time frame for use the Russian language in Ukraine. This is a matter of public record Serb.Originally posted by Serb View Post
the laws and policies that affected the status and use of Russian and other minority languages in Ukraine from 2013 to February 2021 were:- The 2012 law On the principles of the State language policy [ uk], which granted regional language status to Russian and other minority languages. It allowed the use of minority languages in courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the national minorities exceed 10% of the population. The 2012 law was supported by the governing Party of Regions and opposed by the opposition parties, who argued that the law undermined the role of the Ukrainian language, violated Article 10 of the Constitution, and was adopted with an irregular procedure.
- The 2014 repeal of the 2012 law by the Ukrainian Parliament, which was vetoed by the acting President Turchynov. Immediately after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, on 23 February 2014, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the 2012 law. This decision was vetoed by the acting President Turchynov, who said that it was a mistake that could cause unrest among Russian speakers in Ukraine. The repeal was also criticized by Russia and some international organizations as a violation of minority rights.
- The 2017 law On education, which made Ukrainian the mandatory language of instruction in all schools from grade five onwards. The law also limited the use of minority languages in preschool and primary education to separate classes or groups within public institutions. The law aimed to promote Ukrainian as a state language and a tool for integration and social mobility. The law was challenged by several neighboring countries, such as Hungary, Romania, Poland, and Russia, who claimed that it violated the rights of their ethnic minorities in Ukraine. The law was also reviewed by the Venice Commission, which recommended some amendments to ensure a balance between linguistic diversity and social cohesion.
- The 2019 law On supporting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language, which made the use of Ukrainian compulsory (totally or within quotas) in more than 30 spheres of public life, including public administration, electoral process, education, science, culture, media, economic and social life, health and care institutions, and activities of political parties. The law did not regulate private communication. Some exemptions were provided for the official languages of the European Union and for minority languages, with the exclusion of Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish. The law aimed to revitalize the Ukrainian language and reinforce national identity after Russia’s annexation of Crimea and military intervention in Donbas. The law was also reviewed by the Venice Commission, which expressed concern about its failure to protect minority languages.
Nobody anywhere says or ever said anything like 15k civilians killed. That total is almost the same as the total number of all conflict related fatalities on both sides of all civilians and all combatants. There is no conceivable way that the overwhelming majority of those killed were not soldiers. The absolute highest fraction of civilians I could find anywhere was 24% civillian. Most go with 15% civilians. If your sources claim 15k was civilians what were the Donbas separatists and their Russian advisers and FSB leadership doing all that time? Were they just sitting with their thumbs up their arses watching the civilians die so they could show it on prime time Russian TV? Please....
If you're right Serb, the Ukrainians aren't very good at hitting civilian targets, judging by satellite photos by all sources over the years. They also apparently got a lot better at it after the Russian army showed up to liberate themOriginally posted by Serb View Post
I don't think civilians get a lot of options in surprise wars. I think there is plenty of evidence that Russia aggressively herds and corals the civillian populations when they occupy an area. The civilians who ended up in Russia saw what was happening to the people staying and they knew there was only one place they could hope to reach while staying on Russian good graces. I also think that Ukrainian civilians who would rather die than go to Russia are not necessarily going to the EU. They feel they have something important to do for Ukraine first. We would expect Russia to be over-represented among refugee destinations if the overwhelming majority of those who want to stay or to stay and fight were sympathetic to Ukraine.Originally posted by Serb View Post
In any case refugee migration routes and destinations are overwhelmingly determine first by safety (which is often dominated by declared dictates of the controlling armed forces). When they have reached their first destination their options are dominated by the laws and policies of the government they find there.
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