The case against Zelensky.

[N35t0r]

I'm the kind of american that gets called unamerican by Democrats and Republicans for objecting to their wars

Ah, that's why you're objecting to the fact that Biden sent the US armed forces to Ukraine?

the numbers are irrelevant, a right wing coup toppled the Ukrainian govt and eastern Ukrainians were attacked for not supporting it.

That's certainly a creative interpretation of events.

As for Russia's excuses, I'm sure Putin has more than 1 reason but they all pretty much tie together. Nato expanding membership to a country waging an 8 year war near Russia's border is the problem.

How dare Russia's neighbors try to avoid getting invaded!

Also, you do know that Ukraine was not joining NATO with Crimea and the Donbas under Russian occupation, right?

methinks this is about energy, Russia has lots of it and Europe doesn't. We dont like that over here, we want Europe dependent on US energy to the extent we can supply it.

Subsidizing Europe and pushing them faster to renewables is a great way to accomplish this.

[Berzerker]

Do those also include the civilians that were killed by the Separatists in teh parts of Luhansk and Donezk O blast that are in possession of Ukraine?

(because people were killed on both sides of the front ... AFAIK the separatist forces of the LPR/DPR even broke the truces more often than the ukrainian army)

Also did you take into account that even some official of the LPR or GPR admitted that the referenda (about LPR and DPR breaking away from Ukraine) had been faked?

Yes, all civilians killed in the war. I dont know who broke what and I dont trust either side, Ukraine, Russia and the people of the region agreed to peace deals Kiev refused to implement because the right wing and the USA wanted that war. As for public opinion, the poll I saw asked Ukrainians how they felt about Maidan and eastern Ukraine overwhelmingly opposed it, 80%+ in the Donbas which is where the guy who was tossed out in the coup came from, his power base was Donetsk. And I think that poll was before a bunch of right wing snipers shot up Kiev to frame the PM a few weeks after Victoria Nuland chose Ukraine's next leader. Yeah, looks like maybe the CIA and USA was in cahoots.

[Berzerker]

Because it would have taken the rebels to lay down arms to stop the war, and Russia would not have that.

The south of Ukraine (Odessa and Kherson) was as pro-Russia and anti EU as Donetsk and Luhansk. For some reason, they did not mount an armed revolt with Russian 'volunteers', weapons and leaders smuggled over the border. I wonder why.


This makes no sense.
US training went to the Ukrainian army, and it is clear they paid attention because they have behaved with exceptional competence this past two months, unlike in 2014.
Also, UN estimates ~3000 civilian deaths in 7 years of war... Unless the Ukrainian forces magically became 1000000% more effective the second the Russians invaded, it does not look like they were focused on "killing ethnic Russians".

Ah, yes, the 'both sides' argument. Putin has been in power in Russia since '99 (with a 4 year stint by his bestie Medvedev), and all the opposition is either dead or jailed (and Navalny only barely managed to classify to the latter because he was taken to Germany when he got poisoned). Curiously, in 2004 the Ukrainian presidential candidate that ran in an anti-corruption, pro-western agenda got poisoned as well.

Not to mention Chechnya, Georgia, Belarus, Kazakhstan.

I like that you'd willingly throw any country under the bus in order not to anger Putin.

Somehow, people that used to live under the iron curtain seen to be much more willing to stand up to Moscow

A few dozen people protesting the coup were killed in Odessa by the right wing, I read an interview with one of them bragging about the killing of the 'pro-Russian traitors'. That helped drive the east to separate and they didn't need Putin to tell them. Yes Russia helped, we should have helped too. Instead we armed Nazis to kill eastern Ukrainians to provoke Putin for 8 years. We luv peace

Actually that was 3k in 1-2 years, more would have died but people got out of the way and Russia intervened. As for both sides, they suck...like our leaders, just mass murdering psychopaths hired by war profiteers. You're complaining about whataboutism while arguing whatabout these other crimes by Putin. I dont blame Zelensky, he's a comedian/actor who will be killed or disappeared like that Ukrainian peace negotiator if he actually made peace in the Donbas. He apparently went there to tell Azov they had to demilitarize a section and they told him to bugger off. Ukraine does not have democracy, they have a Ukrainian right wing backed by Washington.

[Geronimo]

. Brandon could have prevented this war, Trump and Obama too.

methinks this is about energy, Russia has lots of it and Europe doesn't. We dont like that over here, we want Europe dependent on US energy to the extent we can supply it.

How could they have prevented this war? How could they control their Ukrainian puppet?

[Berzerker]

stop arming and funding it, agree to and support Minsk

our policy hasn't changed, we're still cheering on the war instead of playing peacemaker

[Geronimo]

How much funding and arming from the west did Ukraine enjoy? Not much. Certainly not enough for puppet strings. Hell there was no arming at all for entire years. How would we make peace?

[Berzerker]

The Pharisees armed with stones brought an adulteress before Jesus and he asked them: whatabout you?

Ah, that's why you're objecting to the fact that Biden sent the US armed forces to Ukraine?

That's certainly a creative interpretation of events.

How dare Russia's neighbors try to avoid getting invaded!

Also, you do know that Ukraine was not joining NATO with Crimea and the Donbas under Russian occupation, right?

Subsidizing Europe and pushing them faster to renewables is a great way to accomplish this.

We're employing the Ukrainians to do our fighting, Biden's approval rating might drop even further if American soldiers are getting killed. Ukraine tried to avoid a Russian invasion by killing ethnic Russians right across the border for 8 years? Thats certainly a creative interpretation of events. The USA told Zelensky Ukraine wouldn't be asked to join Nato but to keep that private. We wanted Russia and Ukrainians to think otherwise.

[Geronimo]

The Pharisees armed with stones brought an adulteress before Jesus and he asked them: whatabout you?




We're employing the Ukrainians to do our fighting, Biden's approval rating might drop even further if American soldiers are getting killed. Ukraine tried to avoid a Russian invasion by killing ethnic Russians right across the border for 8 years? Thats certainly a creative interpretation of events. The USA told Zelensky Ukraine wouldn't be asked to join Nato but to keep that private. We wanted Russia and Ukrainians to think otherwise.

A region seceded and the Ukrainian central government responded with indiscriminate force just like Russia always does. Who made Russia do the same?

[Berzerker]

We did, the USA armed Nazis attacking eastern Ukraine for not supporting their coup

8 years of a proxy war on Russia's border led to this, a war we could have ended

[BlackCat]

A region seceded and the Ukrainian central government responded with indiscriminate force just like Russia always does. Who made Russia do the same?

No offense, but the usainians has a tendency to do the same - when some states wanted to go another way than the rest, it resulted in a minor war - same would probably happen today if, say Texas wanted join Mexico instead of USA.

[Geronimo]

No offense, but the usainians has a tendency to do the same - when some states wanted to go another way than the rest, it resulted in a minor war - same would probably happen today if, say Texas wanted join Mexico instead of USA.

None taken. I'm deeply ambivalent about force to decide issues of regional secession.

That said, I generally respect a democratic referendum of secession and I would oppose use of force to keep any seceding portion of the US from leaving. However, it needs to be negotiated by every involved state and proceed by lawful means. That's hardly ever the case.

Bottom line, I've never condemned Russia or Ukraine from using force to put down their secessionist movements. I have however condemned both for not offering a peaceful legal path to secession. If Texas wanted to leave the US government had better offer terms under which it could peacefully occur.

Don't assume that I'm some sort of apologist for any government policy or history even if I do feel some affiliation to the nation-state for a variety of reasons.

[Uncle Sparky]

You are very naïve if you think the referenda in the Donbas were in any way democratic.

[Geronimo]

I should add that I feel election transparency and robustness are essential for any of this to be meaningful. In fact in general I think insufficient attention is given to election transparency and robustness.

[Berzerker]

we know how the people of that region felt about Maidan - NYET

over 80% opposed Maidan and I think that was before a right wing coup sent the guy they overwhelmingly supported packing

[BeBMan]

Looks like Berz is alternating between here and CivFanatics to spread the word about Nazis and stuff.

While glossing over massive Russian warcrimes that is....

[Berzerker]

they kicked me out of the war thread for being unamerican

[Wezil]

His version of Tourette Syndrome.

"Nazi!"

"Biden!"

"Nazi!"

"Dore!"

[BeBMan]

As for neutrality -- Modova has it, per constitution. Not that it actually helped in any way, given the situation in Transnistria.

[PLATO]

Fascism is a form of far right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Far-right politics have lead to oppression, political violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or conservative social institutions.

I just love how Russians and Russian sympathizers refer to Ukrainian's as Nazis. The definitions of Fascism and "Far Right" just about describe Putin's Russia perfectly (Bolding is mine).

[Elok]

Yes, it's very weird how the Russian crypto-fascist is motivated by nostalgia for communism.

[N35t0r]

TBF, the heavily authoritarian nature of communism puts it very close to fascism.

[The Mad Monk]

A little something on NATO expansion.

[Geronimo]

could you provide a summary?