The case against Zelensky.

[Bereta_Eder]

You have to look at who benefits and that's Putin and the US. That's it

The ones who lose are europe and of course the people.

Nestor, I don't dispute what you say, but just as finland managed to placate a veritable superpower and prosper (well it's an euphemisn when you live next to polar bears but let's indulge them) I would not see hy ukraine couldn't have done the same,

maybe if zelensky told the US to go f itself just as nuland said the same about the EU that wanted a more humane approache to the eruomaiden and maybe give them eastern ukraine and crimea and promise not to enter NATO (it is now agreed by zelensky) maybe a different outcome could have emerged.

But you have to care for your people to do that. not for some alien interests

that's an hypothesis but I'm sure it holds much water

[pchang]

You are pretty warped if you think the US benefits from a Russian attack on Ukraine. You are also messed in the head if you see the “shadowy hand” of the US in pretty much everything.

[Berzerker]

american energy likes the war

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

And the "shadowy hand" is mostly messing up Central and South America - one hopes a lot less than during the Cold War...

-As a voting citizen of the US, I'd like to mention that I wish the spooks didn't and hadn't do/done that. They've definitely never sought my permission.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Gee... I"m sure you would be thrilled if some other country told you that you were no longer your own country... That you weren't allowed to resist them because THEY say you have to be neutral and give them half your country...
Would you just have rolled over and taken it?

And frankly, if you believe this whole war is simply about Russia's desire to have Ukraine neutral, and NOT about rebuilding the old Soviet Empire... I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

"gee" a nerve was hit. nice to talk with you ming.

[Geronimo]

Yes, I'd also like to hear an explanation of how this could have been good for the united states. If there is a shadowy manipulator that benefits from all of this it is surely China.

[BeBMan]

The whole neutrality argument is bogus. Zelensky has meanwhile signalled he'd even agree to it, so the war would have stopped if this had any merit.

[Geronimo]

In 2014, in the Ukraine topic threads (all of those threads which all mysteriously vanished from the server along with any backups) I stated several times that the disparity in forces was so enormous between Russia and Ukraine, that any investment in Ukrainian military capability was futile for deterring Russia which I held was only being restrained by it's domestic political considerations and would either be more likely to attack in response to such efforts or more likely would scarcely deem them worthy of consideration.
For what it is worth, I can see now that I was completely wrong. Ukraine definitely would have benefitted from any successful military investments it could have made or received.

[Berzerker]

I'm not saying that Ukranians aren't heros because they are. Not saying that russia is not a murderous dictatorship because it is.


What I am discussing here is the RESPONSIBILITY of a leader vis a vis his people.

You should never, ever become a pawn into no f anyone's hands.


I support that people have the right to choose their fate 100% whatever that might be.

I support anyone's right for freedom democracy human rights pink cars the whole deal.


What I am questioning is wether ukraine's leader could have done something differently

becaus let's face it, everyone is in favor of Ukraine, me first of all, but if presented with a dilema of tens of thousands of my people dying for a proxy war between Russia and the US and maybe finding an alternative route, I might have gone finland.

If Zelensky is now accepting neutrality (which changes nothing) why wouldn't he have accepted it back then and maybe avert the reason for the russian attack?

We will never now, how much a pawn he is.

In any case ukranian resistance is phenomenal, ukraine needs all the support it can get. And it is destroyed.

Apparently every Ukrainian PM ran on ending the war in the Donbas including Zelensky and he won a landslide among those who could vote, but they didn't end the war so here we are. Why couldn't they end that war? The Ukrainian right wing is fanatical and they have our support. We want a proxy war with Russia and the Nazis want to kill "separatists". We've been arming them for 8 years to kill ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. I'm not in favor of Russia or Ukraine, they're both run by thugs and I dont appreciate my leaders endangering our lives playing chicken with Putin.

[Trillion]

I wonder how the non separatist people in the Donbas regions are doing?

[Berzerker]

The Donbas was depopulated by the 8 year war, most of the people who stayed were separatists defending their lands from Kiev

You can see this by the number of civilian deaths, a few thousand back in 2014-15 that quickly tapered off as millions of people fled

The Donbas region was overwhelmingly opposed to Maidan, 80%+, they had no obligation to support a right wing coup overthrowing their govt

[Trillion]

Well people will flee from the areas of battles. Kind of hard to have a flower garden when a tank keeps driving through it. I still think this just an excuse for Russia to land grab a resource rich area. I don't trust your numbers.

What kind of American are you Berz?, aren't all you guys all supposed to be 50's style crew cut/jar head right wing\Republicans just chomping on the bit to kill some commie pinkos. You spent so much time and energy fighting the commies, a lot of American lives, why stop now. Just over the feelings of a few separatists. Maybe you should move to California. Their hearts are probably bleeding for the separatists too.

[N35t0r]

You have to look at who benefits and that's Putin and the US. That's it

The ones who lose are europe and of course the people.

Nestor, I don't dispute what you say, but just as finland managed to placate a veritable superpower and prosper (well it's an euphemisn when you live next to polar bears but let's indulge them) I would not see hy ukraine couldn't have done the same,

maybe if zelensky told the US to go f itself just as nuland said the same about the EU that wanted a more humane approache to the eruomaiden and maybe give them eastern ukraine and crimea and promise not to enter NATO (it is now agreed by zelensky) maybe a different outcome could have emerged.

But you have to care for your people to do that. not for some alien interests

that's an hypothesis but I'm sure it holds much water

1) I think the country that will benefit the most from the war is China, since it will speed up the transition of Russia into a Chinese client state.

Europe (outside of Ukraine, obviously) can come out ahead. This will bring the EU closer together (hopefully), and will accelerate the phasing out of fossil fuels. It is clear that the policy of integrating Russia into the world through trade failed, since Moscow seems to prefer to be a thug rather than a good neighbor.

The losers this are clearly Ukraine first and Russians second.

2) Finland has not been ruled by Moscow since more than 100 years ago. The previous ~100 years of Russian rule they were relatively autonomous. There are few Russians living there. They are not Slavs, not Orthodox, don't have much in common culturally with Russia. It is not comparable at all with Ukraine.


3) Ukraine before the war was not going to enter NATO. Impossible, with Russians occupying Crimea and proxy-invading the east.
If Ukraine has told the US to **** off after Crimea, they'd be another Belarus right now. Go and check if that's somewhere you'd be happy with living in. Most Ukrainians clearly don't.

Also, do you think Putin would have stopped with Crimea and the Donbas? After Chechnya, South Ossetia, Abkhazia...? Suddenly he'd be happy with what he got so far? Is there anything that makes you think that?

[Berzerker]

Well people will flee from the areas of battles. Kind of hard to have a flower garden when a tank keeps driving through it. I still think this just an excuse for Russia to land grab a resource rich area. I don't trust your numbers.

What kind of American are you Berz?, aren't all you guys all supposed to be 50's style crew cut/jar head right wing\Republicans just chomping on the bit to kill some commie pinkos. You spent so much time and energy fighting the commies, a lot of American lives, why stop now. Just over the feelings of a few separatists. Maybe you should move to California. Their hearts are probably bleeding for the separatists too.

I'm the kind of american that gets called unamerican by Democrats and Republicans for objecting to their wars

what numbers dont you trust?

from what I've seen about 14k+ were killed and 3-4k were civilians and the bulk of them died in the first 1-2 years of the war and that produced a mass exodus of maybe 3-4 million people

the numbers are irrelevant, a right wing coup toppled the Ukrainian govt and eastern Ukrainians were attacked for not supporting it. Imagine if Trump/MAGA/Jan 6 was a coup and Trump sent an army of Nazis to attack any state that refused to comply.

As for Russia's excuses, I'm sure Putin has more than 1 reason but they all pretty much tie together. Nato expanding membership to a country waging an 8 year war near Russia's border is the problem. The US wanted that war, we armed Nazis to kill eastern Ukrainians just to make Russia bleed and it worked. Brandon could have prevented this war, Trump and Obama too.

methinks this is about energy, Russia has lots of it and Europe doesn't. We dont like that over here, we want Europe dependent on US energy to the extent we can supply it.

[Uncle Sparky]

This topic is Ukraine, NOT the Republic of Georgia. The terrible south Ossetians and Abkhaziis are freed/occupied by Russia 8 - 15 years ago.... GLORIOUS Putin saved all the local Russians (real or imaginary). Groznyy was not so lucky. Someone pretending to be Putin just about raised Chechnya and its capital, and put a brutal warlord in charge.

Your stories of what happened over the last 8 years in eastern Ukraine are Kremlin BULL****. After Putin is dead, I'll unblock you. Have Fun!

[Proteus_MST]

...

from what I've seen about 14k+ were killed and 3-4k were civilians and the bulk of them died in the first 1-2 years of the war and that produced a mass exodus of maybe 3-4 million people

...

Do those also include the civilians that were killed by the Separatists in teh parts of Luhansk and Donezk O blast that are in possession of Ukraine?

(because people were killed on both sides of the front ... AFAIK the separatist forces of the LPR/DPR even broke the truces more often than the ukrainian army)

Also did you take into account that even some official of the LPR or GPR admitted that the referenda (about LPR and DPR breaking away from Ukraine) had been faked?

[N35t0r]

Apparently every Ukrainian PM ran on ending the war in the Donbas including Zelensky and he won a landslide among those who could vote, but they didn't end the war so here we are. Why couldn't they end that war?

Because it would have taken the rebels to lay down arms to stop the war, and Russia would not have that.

The south of Ukraine (Odessa and Kherson) was as pro-Russia and anti EU as Donetsk and Luhansk. For some reason, they did not mount an armed revolt with Russian 'volunteers', weapons and leaders smuggled over the border. I wonder why.

The Ukrainian right wing is fanatical and they have our support. We want a proxy war with Russia and the Nazis want to kill "separatists". We've been arming them for 8 years to kill ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

This makes no sense.
US training went to the Ukrainian army, and it is clear they paid attention because they have behaved with exceptional competence this past two months, unlike in 2014.
Also, UN estimates ~3000 civilian deaths in 7 years of war... Unless the Ukrainian forces magically became 1000000% more effective the second the Russians invaded, it does not look like they were focused on "killing ethnic Russians".

I'm not in favor of Russia or Ukraine, they're both run by thugs and I dont appreciate my leaders endangering our lives playing chicken with Putin.

Ah, yes, the 'both sides' argument. Putin has been in power in Russia since '99 (with a 4 year stint by his bestie Medvedev), and all the opposition is either dead or jailed (and Navalny only barely managed to classify to the latter because he was taken to Germany when he got poisoned). Curiously, in 2004 the Ukrainian presidential candidate that ran in an anti-corruption, pro-western agenda got poisoned as well.

Not to mention Chechnya, Georgia, Belarus, Kazakhstan.

I like that you'd willingly throw any country under the bus in order not to anger Putin.

Somehow, people that used to live under the iron curtain seen to be much more willing to stand up to Moscow