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4.8 million Ukrainians disagree. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022...20April%202022).
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“It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man -
Finland got luckyComment
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Also, Russia views Ukraine differently from Finland. They are not comparable.
[Edit:] a free, prosperous Ukraine is a threat to Russia just by the sake of existing. There's no way Putin works have let that be, and that is the real reason for the invasion, not this NATO nonsense (which was already blocked with Russians in Crimea anyway)Indifference is BlissComment
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Also remember that Putins demands weren't just for Ukraine to become neutral, but also to give up its weapons/army.
Had Zelenskyj done this, Ukraine would have been ripe pickings for an eventual invasion of the soviet ehm russian army
(which would have come more sooner than later, for some fabricated reasons (like: oppression of the russian minorities, secret labs for bioweapons or whatever))Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"Comment
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pchang, emptying cities in case there might be a war is not how it works.
I agree with nestor that that's the real incentive for putin. that ukraine would become free EVENTUALLY (banning the communist party and 10 other parties doesn't do that) and then russians would want some.
proteus ukraine had already given up its nuclear arsenal (ironically there were guaranteer powers...)
the what ifs of the future really don't help the ukranian people now...
the more I think about it the more I think zelensky might have sacrificed his people because he's inept and been played by a pawn mainly by the powers that don't have the well being of his country in mind.
That doesn't absolve russia in the slightest or doesn't belittle ukranian struggle.
maybe in the future we'll now the truh.Comment
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You seem pretty relentless in your desire to find fault with Zelenskyy. -
Biden told them to fire their prosecutor or lose a billion in aid, the US has been running Ukraine ever since a right wing coup toppled the govt in 2014
hell, we have Victoria Nuland on tape picking their next PM weeks before snipers lit up Maidan to blame the PM
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We don't talk about nuclear weapons.Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
What Putin demanded was a complete demilitarization of Ukraine, i.e. he wanted Ukraine to also give up its army (and therefore become totally defenseles against Russia)
Here in an article shortly before the war:
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/eur...h-russia-putinTamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"Comment
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Maybe that was because there was a war raging from 2014 in the donbas region.
Was that the initial demand of russia or was it right just before the war?
In any case this could actually amplify my working agument that zelensky had years to try and smooth things out instead of punching the knife as we sayComment
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(btw I liked the turksih media touch but considering the state of press freedom in turkey it inevitably places all honest discussions on shaky foundations)Comment
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Let me repeat my point:Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
There was no chance of Russia letting Ukraine be free. This doesn't mean that they would have let Ukraine alone if Ukraine had agreed to neutrality, and then maybe pushed again in 10 years. Putin will not have let the year end without Ukraine under his boot (like he has Belarus).
Now you might say that that is better than all the deaths there have been so far, but in that case I ask you if you think that Greece's independence from the ottomans was also a mistake?
I think your very mistaken about Ukraine fighting as a pawn of the west. Ukrainians do not want to be subjects of Moscow. They were going to fight with it without western support. And from what Russia has been doing in the territory they occupied, it is clear that Ukrainians have made the right choice.
Every weapon that the west sends to Ukraine is helping prevent Ukrainian deaths, not increasing them.
Last edited by N35t0r; April 16, 2022, 12:44.Indifference is BlissComment
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Originally posted by N35t0r View Post
when things are wanting in the greek state we often wonder "did we bring down the most fearsome empire of that time for THIS?" (but it's a joke)
On the point at hand I gree that ukranians do not want to live under moscow. I'm questioning wether so many needed not be living at all.
Zelensky's firebrand patriotism coiuld well be serving others than his own people, as he shoould have.
So far all I hear is "russia would have attacked anyway" coupled with "you desperate fool trying to c block zelensky" neither of which are based on facts, they are assumptionsComment
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I do hear you though, it is the main narative and I appreciate the input.
it's not like Vlaams Legioen has appeared wanting to decapitate me for my communist tendenciesComment
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A wise man once said that anything in a sentence before the word "but" can safely be ignored. So, what I hear is "Ukraine is right but...". Please stipulate very clearly what comes behind the word "but" in your sentence... Because as of now you seem to support the very institutions that you are vilifying in the same thought. I will wait for an answer when you are sober enough.
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I get the sentiment. Some years before our independence we kicked some British invasion attempt back into the sea, while the Spanish authorities fled with the money. This kicked our patriot faction into overdrive, and helped out independence, but every now and then people joke that we should have welcomed them with open arms rather then kicking them out.Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
[QUOTE=Bereta_Eder;n9436192On the point at hand I gree that ukranians do not want to live under moscow. I'm questioning wether so many needed not be living at all.
Zelensky's firebrand patriotism coiuld well be serving others than his own people, as he shoould have.
So far all I hear is "russia would have attacked anyway" coupled with "you desperate fool trying to c block zelensky" neither of which are based on facts, they are assumptions [/QUOTE]
Well, I don't think the assumption is that far-fetched. Russian rhetoric has been heavily 'Ukraine as a nation doesn't exist' since forever (the blatant disregard for Ukrainian civilian lives and rights at the Russian troops is a clear consequence of this).
Russia has been pushing its control on former Soviet republics everywhere it could, and when Ukrainians got fed up with their corrupt Russian puppet and ousted him, they invaded Crimea and annexed it unilaterally, then fomented pro-russian separatists on the eastern edges of Ukraine and consistently armed and supplied them.
All of this is not really compatible with 'letting Ukraine alone', especially since other demands were for Ukraine to demilitarize.
Look at Kazakhstan and Bielorrusia: Putin lackeys in power heavily despised by the population (and the only reason Lukashenko is still in power is Russian military support).
Look at Georgia: Russia has annexed two parts of the country (I'd seriously hate to be Georgia if Russia managed to quickly conquer Ukraine).Indifference is BlissComment
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Zelensky was an actor before this, do you expect flawless diplomacy? And even if he did everything perfectly it probably wouldn't have mattered.Comment
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The blame for all the deaths falls only on one person... and it sure as hell isn't Zelensky.Keep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron OComment
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