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Originally posted by Berzerker
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Regardless (and other than the fact this is B.S.), This does not justify military intervention and the starting of an 8 year static conflict followed by a wholesale invasion even if it were true."I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003 -
If the objective of the Ukrainian government and the United States was to kill ethnically Russian Ukrainians in the Donbas why were they so lousy at it for 8 years? When the objective becomes willful extirpation of civilians the bodies can pile up orders of magnitude faster than a max of 14k over 8 years.Originally posted by Berzerker View PostComment
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Nazis spent 8 years attacking eastern Ukrainians with our help. That is the only fact I need.Originally posted by PLATO View Post
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People have different objectives, the US wanted a proxy war with Russia and Ukraine was ideal - a corrupt country with a right wing faction that hates Russians (among others). The Nazi goal is a nationalistic cultural cleansing, ours is bleeding Russia. Most of the civilians killed in the Donbas died early on, the war resulted in millions of refugees. Most people fled to other parts of eastern Ukraine or Russia.Originally posted by Geronimo View Post
Imagine if Jan 6 was a coup and Trump sent a neo-Nazi army to attack the people of Oregon for not complying.
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It's definitely an important fact. How is it determined? You can place 'nazis' fighting in the Donbas and you can show the US sending lethal aid to Ukraine but that will not show any kind of Nazi campaign against anyone.Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
Like all other genocides and ethnic cleansings you need quite a bit more evidence than grunts with swastika tats fighting somewhere with civilian casualties.
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I'll gladly imagine your hypothetical thought experiment and can report in perfect honesty that I would not recognize any foreign military right to intervene as a result of the coup and extralegal suppression of armed dissent in Oregon.Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
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'All of it is a lie': Russian paratrooper condemns his country's war in Ukraine
(CNN)The Kremlin's justification for invading Ukraine "is a lie," a Russian paratrooper who previously publicly condemned his country's war in Ukraine has told CNN.
Two weeks ago, Pavel Filatyev spoke out against the conflict in a 141-page-long testimony posted to his VKontakte social media page, then fled Russia. He is the first serving member of the Russian military to publicly criticize the invasion of Ukraine and leave the country.
Now he tells CNN that his fellow troops as tired, hungry and disillusioned -- and that the Kremlin's war effort is "destroying peaceful lives."
"We understood that we were dragged into a serious conflict where we are simply destroying towns and not actually liberating anyone," Filatyev told CNN's Matthew Chance. CNN is not disclosing the location of the interview for the security of the interviewee.
"Many understood that we do not see the reason that our government is trying to explain to us. That all of it is a lie," he said. "We are just destroying peaceful lives. This fact immensely influenced our morale. That feeling that we are not doing anything good."
Filatyev, 33, told CNN "corruption" and repression are rife in his home country and said his unit -- which was based in Crimea and sent to Ukraine entering Kherson early in the conflict -- was ill-equipped and given little explanation for Russia's invasion.
According to Filatyev, the soldiers and their commanders did not know what they were expected to do in Ukraine. He added that they soon became disillusioned with the government's reasoning for its invasion after arriving in Kherson and facing resistance from locals who did not want to be "liberated."
The paratrooper served in Russia's 56th air assault regiment and was also involved in efforts to capture the city of Mykolaiv. He was evacuated from the front lines because of an injury.
He told CNN the Russian army lacked basic equipment, as well as drones and other types of unmanned aircraft during his stint on the front line.
"Our barracks are about 100 years old and are not able to host all of our servicemen ... all of our weapons are from the times of Afghanistan," he said.
"Several days after we encircled Kherson many of us did not have any food, water or sleeping sacks on them," he said. "Because it was very cold at night, we couldn't even sleep. We would find some rubbish, some rags, just to wrap ourselves to keep warm."
The capture of Kherson was a significant early military success for Russia. Ukraine is now battling to regain the city as fighting increasingly shifts to the country's south.
But Filatyev said he struggles to understand the vision of Russian President Vladimir Putin, who launched the invasion of Ukraine nearly six months ago and has seen his troops locked in a grinding, costly conflict.
"Now that I am out of there and without a gun, I think this is the worst, stupidest thing our government could have done," he said. "I do not know where the government is leading us. What is the next step? Nuclear war?"
"I see what is happening to my country and I am terrified. Everything is destroyed, corrupted," he told CNN. "The only laws that function well are repressive ones."
Filatyev fled Russia after conducting some initial media interviews. But he suggested the Kremlin could take revenge for his public position."I will either be put in prison ... or they will just silence me by taking me out. There were a lot of cases like that in the past," he said.
"I do not see any other way out. If it happens, it happens."BlahComment
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Only Serb would make ten consecutive posts and then cry censorship when one of his posts gets caught in the spam filter.Comment
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Self-proclaimed "strong" ppl often enjoy posing as poor victim of oppression these days, lol.BlahComment
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I didn't call it a genocide and you can scour google for articles about the Nazis in Ukraine going back to 2014. The people of the Donbas overwhelmingly rejected the right wing coup in Kiev, the USA embraced or backed it. Does it matter if we call them Nazis? Lets call them moderate rebels.Originally posted by Geronimo View PostComment
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Because it's Nazis are always the first to call "Nazi" these days. -
Hmm... always... these days... Does that mean Antifa are Nazis now? A few years back we were told Trump was calling Nazis "fine people" while he was actually arming Ukrainian Nazis. Thats seriously effed up, neo-Nazis protest the removal of statues and thats the scandal, not the Nazis we were arming in Ukraine or Islamic terrorists in Syria. -
That there's Nazi talk. I thought you were better than that.
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So in your opinion, the elections that have taken place since then that overwhelmingly support a free democratic state (as opposed to a Russian controlled oligarchical state) are of no value. You think it is more important for people to start warfare against the state backed by the same Russians that were trying to choke freedom before. The blood in Ukraine certainly does lie at the feet of the Nazis, but in this case those feet are encased in Russian military boots.Originally posted by Berzerker View Post"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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Honestly, I didn't knew that this guy made youtube videos, but he apparently does. He's a danish naval officer working at Forsvarsakademiet and makes fairly good analysis of what is happening in Ukraine (often used in danish telly). He has made several videos, but I find these two interesting.
WARNING - it might be quite boring for some since there are no action or the like, just a man talking about things.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven WeinbergComment
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A right wing coup shot up a protest to drive the elected leader from power, a man overwhelmingly supported by eastern Ukrainians. Ask them if the "election" had value, they were being attacked by Nazis. The blood is on our hands, just like Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia - spreading democracy.Originally posted by PLATO View Post
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There was no right wing coup. Countries elect leaders as a nation, not a region. The man was a Russian puppet stifling the will of the majority. The elections since would have had great value to them had they not been in armed insurrection. WRT-Syria...you prefer ISIS? WRT to Libya...you prefer Khadafi? WRT to Iraq...you prefer Sadam? WRT to Afghanistan...you prefer Al Qaeda? WRT to Somalia...you prefer the warlord model? You should seriously think about your views on right and wrong.
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