Brexit divorce deal

[Proteus_MST]

No. Hitler had plans for world domination from the beginning. Just because it looked like he was successful, his plans were disastrous. His big mistake wasn't invading Russia. They were going to invade you. But Hitler made your military strong. His mistake was allowing his ally Japan attack America, who was not going to join the war.

Germany didn't actually "allow" Japan to attack the USA ... Japan did so without asking beforehand
(AFAIK the attack on Pearl Harbor was so secretly planned that it came as a surprise to the german high command as well)
I am sure that Hitler would also have preferred if the Japanese had attacked russia instead (and forced it into a 2 fronts war between Japanese attacks in the east and german attacks in the west)

[Aeson]

You are confusing my government with my nation. Same thing Proteus did. Funny, because both of you are governmentophiles. Both of you love government, just anti-nation government.

Dinner said self determination was about national governments. You said not agreeing with national government was being a traitor. I have maintained that individuals should have the right to self determination, which you called traitorous. So obviously you are the fascist authoritarian.

[Aeson]

It’s telling that Kids main argument with Hitler is in military strategy ... not with the hatred of those who are different, eugenics, offensive warfare, police state, or fascism.

Hes implying that if Hitler had carried out WWII successfully that would have gotten Kids support in the hypothetical being discussed.

[Proteus_MST]

Not surprising ... admitting that it would have been justified to resist the german government on moral grounds (i.e. because "exterminating minorities is bad") would have forced him to admit that there actually are cases in which loyality to your principles/morals is more important than loyality to your nation

[Dinner]

An honestly good solution would be for both the EU and the UK to just exempt the Irish land border from any customs regime on both sides. Of course, the EU continues to block such common sense solutions as its goal is not to reach a common sense solution and instead is only to act in bad faith and to be puniative.

Thus why no deal is the best realistic deal possible. A good faith deal cannot be reached with a bad faith actor such as the EU.

[Bereta_Eder]

Why would the EU do that? Break its own rules I mean. That's not a problem for the EU if the catholics and protestants want to kill eachother. The EU law will be applied throughout the member states and no exception or special treatment will be given. The UK will have to deal with it. It chose violence for northern ireland

[Bereta_Eder]

Also the EU can make an expetion because it is a teddy bear sweetheart compared to crazy UK. It has offered to excempt the WHOLE of ireland from the customs union. The UK doesn't want it because it says it violates their constiutution. What about the EU constitution? Listen, hard border = war. soft norder = in time ireland is whole and united to the catholics. The UK should have thought this through. It didn't and it pays the consequences of its stubborn and irrational and barely democratic choice.

[Bereta_Eder]

Also I think that Greece should veto everything untill the parthenon marbles are returned. theft should not be tolerated, let alone encouraged. Thieves must be held accountable. Same goes for gilbrartar and also Spain should represnet Argentina and claim the malvides too. It's open season for thieves.

[Proteus_MST]

Also the EU can make an expetion because it is a teddy bear sweetheart compared to crazy UK. It has offered to excempt the WHOLE of ireland from the customs union. The UK doesn't want it because it says it violates their constiutution. What about the EU constitution? Listen, hard border = war. soft norder = in time ireland is whole and united to the catholics. The UK should have thought this through. It didn't and it pays the consequences of its stubborn and irrational and barely democratic choice.

Exactly ...
it is not the EUs problem when the UK doesn't accept the compromise to have the whole of Ireland be part of the free trade zone and only have custom controls between Ifreland and the british isle.

It should be common sense hat exempting Ireland AND having no custom controls between Ireland and the british isle is inacceptable

[Dauphin]

On a practical note, what happens to the border under no deal......

If the U.K. and Ireland don’t put up a border, what will the EU do?

[Bereta_Eder]

depends on the mood. there are lots of choices when it comes to ireland. Ireland would want to judge on one hand its ambition for a unified ireland (which it has) against possible EU sanctions. vis a vis the UK there is no limit.

[Dinner]

It is the EU which has kept insisting that it is just so, so concerned about Ireland. Of course, it is not, and the only thing it is interested in is using this supposed issue to try to entrap the UK into being stuck in the vile customs union. Thus all of the EU's lies about being "concerned" should simply be ignored as should their equally vile and dishonest "backstop". That is why the dictated terms should simply be rejected.

In time, the arrogant current members of the unelected European Commission will be replaced and then an actual fair and equitable trade agreement will be signed. That is really all the UK wants anyway.

Lastly "EU rules" are a complete joke in every way, in every shape, and in every form. The EU makes and breaks it's own rules almost on a daily basis ignoring them whenever they want. Remember the 3% budget deficit cap? Yeah, that got enforced only among weak small nations yet France broke it and nothing happened. I could come up with dozens of examples but I think you get the point.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ireland is a member of the EU and the EU will look out for it 10 times before it even glances to the UK. That said, there are rules. the free movement of goods in one of the 4 pillars of freedom embelished in the maastricth treaty and is cornerstone to the functioning of the EU. it cannot be ignored. If the UK was so interested in peace (let alone... ireland...!) it should have thought about the irrationality of its actions and accept reality instead of ignoring it. wishing that when the commission members would change, its mission would change is beyond clueless. Really, I don't know wether to laugh or cry. no matter the members of the commission which are elected through govs that are democratically elected, the principles will remain the same: furthering the EU integration and looking out for its core interests, of which the UK is no part anymore.

[Dinner]

On a practical note, what happens to the border under no deal......

If the U.K. and Ireland don’t put up a border, what will the EU do?

Ireland says it doesn't want a border, the UK says it doesn't want a border... So it will be up to the EU to demand Ireland create a border. Which really shows the lie that there is nothing the EU can do because if there is a border it will be because the EU demands on and only because of that.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ireland doesn't a want a border isn't translated to Ireland will choose to exit the EU than create a border. And that's all that matters really. Ireland's choice and wellbeing. And I dount it would be so irrational like the UK to *think* it can have it all. It's called not being a man child.

[Dinner]

If the EU isn't a liar and it genuinely does just care so damn much about Ireland, as it has claimed adnoseum, then it can indeed provide and exemption for the Irish land border. Ireland is peripheral to the EU and most of its trade goes through the UK anyway. The effect on the "common market" would be so minor as to not even be noticed by the EU. So the only reason not to do so (for the land border anyway) would be because they truly are bad faith actors.

That would remove the blocking issue (namely the arrogant demand for the completely unneeded backstop which will be rejected by Parliament anyway) and would probably result in the modified deal going forward. Failing that there is my preferred method of just saying no deal and walking with the EU getting nothing and its budget going immediately into crisis. Those are the only realistic options at this point.

I fully expect to see the arrogant and incompetent European Commission to continue to refuse to face reality and for no deal to be the result just like the E.C. ****ed up the negotiations before the Brexit vote proving it was unreformable and resulting in the Brexit vote passing to begin with. Make no mistake, this is a repeated failure of the EU as an institution and shows it is not reformable.