Old Times political discussion

[Jon Miller]

So I was reading

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

(and the cited article - I only skimmed the cited article )
and wanted to discuss it. I even would like to welcome BK to give his opinion on it. Please give what you think you are.

I (and to a lesser extant my wife) probably fall under progressive liberals (That is not a class, I just am not sure if I fall under Passive Liberals or Progressive Activists). I am generally in favor of PC, my wife is generally opposed (my wife is probably more Moderate).

She prefers a nation where people openly say racist things (South Africa) but where people are honest/know where each other stands (and she is very disgusted by the white racists of SA) and she thinks the American way (PCism) ends up with the racism hidden, pernicious and just as damaging. A relative of hers who is now law enforcement in the US (and had been in law enforcement in SA) expressed it something like "every group is biased, what is important is to have law enforcement be made up of different groups so that law enforcement is biased against every group and not just one".

I think that by making more harmonious interactions, that society becomes more harmonious and less racist. For example, I don't remember any racism in my family towards African Americans growing up... and personally have little explicit racism now (and even less when I left my poor, rural, white/hispanic community ~20 years ago). However, when I return to talk to with my family and extended family I see explicit racism and both explicit and implicit biases. Some of this is that my eyes have been opened, both by living in an African American community during graduation school (and attending an African American church) and by the politics/news of the last ~5 years. Some of this also maybe that they have been influenced by a steady diet of Fox News and talk radio. But some of it may be that they always had such views but didn't express them... and now do. My point being that in part because of PCism (and in part because of being part of one of the most diverse Christian denominations) my extended family produced someone less racist than they were.

As far as breakdowns, I think it is interesting to compare PA/DC which are 8/6 of the population and PA+TL/DC+TC which are 19/25. I think that the latter is what has given us Trump and the former is what has given us PC culture in academia and Hollywood. It is also interesting where they break things down (although they note that DC+TC do not have all that much in common with M), and that PA+TL+PL/DC+TC+M are 34/40.

So discussion thesis:
" PCism is bad for political discourse, disliked by most conservatives, moderates and liberals and divides more than it unites"
Do I need to change my mind?

JM
(My wife would probably disagree with some points in my presentation of her view. So take the presented view more as one that I have constructed from my discussions with her as an alternative and less as her view.)

[Jon Miller]

This does solidify my very Traditional Liberal feel that what is needed in 2018 and 2020 is a move by the Democrats towards the center. The Moderates don't particularly like Trump and are engaged. But they aren't liberal.

This might be basically what is happening. (PA+TL+M)/(PA+TL+M+TC+DC) = 57% which is roughly twice the Democrat national percentage.

JM

[ZEE]

All the words in this thrade depresses me when I go and try to read all of it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Interesing. I'm reading your article. Once I'm done I'll comment.

[Ben Kenobi]

I grew up in an environment where the most important news of the day came from Oprah. That she was black didn't matter at all in my family. I have dated folks from many different backgrounds, Hispanic, East Indian, Korean. For me it was about the values that these people shared with me. I went to a Korean Baptist church despite being the only white person there. I also attended at a Russian Mennonite church despite not being a Russian.

My 'tribe' if you can call it that I've been outcast from for a long time. I'm supposed to be with the 'deaf culture', but I don't fit in. I was taught to speak when I was little and I went to public school and had friends from the neighbor folks, all of whom could hear and that was my environment. I had a normal childhood, unlike theirs. PC has made it very clear to me that I have a box that I need to live in and unless I'm willing to live in that box I have no value to provide for others. I've encountered that in the working world. As a teacher, everyone asked, "why don't you teach at a school for the deaf?" Because I'm not interested in teaching there. I'm interested in teaching in a regular school. That's why I applied here. Other workplaces said, "you should just go on disability and not take a job from someone else who has to work. I have no idea why you're trying to work".

The article touches on some observations I've made over the years. PC is essentially a white liberal invention that has it's highest support among the rich and I'd call 'overly educated'. I'm not surprised that other races hate PC, it's obvious if you spend any time with them in a neutral session. Your 'African drumming class' isn't a neutral setting. Everyone who falls into a particular PC 'class' has experienced similar things that I have. Has PC helped me get ahead? Nope. But it has put up additional barriers that I've had to deal with my entire academic career. Frankly, I would have been happier had they just treated me like a regular student and not some alien from another planet.

So what happens when your 'tribe' kicks you out? You find your own. For a person who was raised on Oprah, Clarence Thomas was a natural gateway into conservativism. I like my tribe now of faithful Catholic Canadians. We aren't big tribe, but they support me and I support them.

[Berzerker]

PC is not exclusive to progressive liberals, just try feasting on the sacred cows fed by other factions and you'll see... What distinguishes liberal PC is that it represents groups that have been the historical targets of others.

[Ben Kenobi]

represents groups that have been the historical targets of others.

I'll tell another story. Many of their 'interventions' are well meaning. When I was in college, we had the opportunity to select notetakers. People that would take notes for you in class. Well, the rules were that, we didn't get to choose who would do it for us, we wouldn't get to meet and talk with them, they would have to apply through the usual hiring process and if they met with the approval of the school only then would they be hired! By the time they got through this process a month would be gone.

When I spoke with the folks running it (people who could hear), they stated that they believed this was more respectful as the student would not have to disclose his status. Despite the fact that I was the only person there using these services for this purpose, I eventually had to pay out of pocket to get some help from a friend.

Later on I decided that they were more of a hindrance than a help and decided to just take my own notes as I always had in lower grades, and my grades actually improved. But I had to cut through a lot of misconceptions?

Long and short, PC claims to represent, but there's a big difference between what they claim to do and the reality, that they are a hindrance more than a help.

[Giancarlo]

I grew up... ***bull**** cut***

Not enough apparently.

[Jon Miller]

I think I understand how the notetaker situation falls under PCism. Although more indirect?

I would consider the notion that Deafness is not a Disability a direct and clear example of PCism.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I think I understand how the notetaker situation falls under PCism. Although more indirect?

Stakeholders making decisions without consultation from the affected groups is what falls under PC. The notion that their beliefs as to what things ought to be are how things are.

[Aeson]

They probably need to dig deeper to find the real issue. Likely the extent of PC matters. Most people probably agree that using racial slurs in public discourse is unacceptable for instance, and as such would support at least some level of PC, the question is more anout where does PC become a problem. It’s not surprising that PC as a homogeneous block is widely viewed as a problem.

Its like congress approval ratings, virtually everyone can agree it’s terrible as a whole, but most would support at least some things congress does, or some in congress. The details are far more telling than the reaction to treating a varied landscape as homogeneous block.

[Elok]

The fact that "political correctness" is not clearly defined is the single largest liability here. And I'm a moderate in that I espouse a variety of positions across various political axes.

[Jon Miller]

Stakeholders making decisions without consultation from the affected groups is what falls under PC. The notion that their beliefs as to what things ought to be are how things are.

I don't really see that as PCism, as it has existed in the Americans since the beginning with respect to natives and so on.

What I saw as indirect PCism is that they didn't want to say that you were disabled or present you as disabled (and so didn't provide you with the assistance that you needed due to your disability, so your example was a negative example of PCism).

As a teacher, everyone asked, "why don't you teach at a school for the deaf?" Because I'm not interested in teaching there. I'm interested in teaching in a regular school. That's why I applied here. Other workplaces said, "you should just go on disability and not take a job from someone else who has to work. I have no idea why you're trying to work".

These are examples of what PCism is trying to fight.

So in your two posts you have given one example of harm caused by PCism and related many more examples of where PCism would improve the situation and alleviate harm.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't really see that as PCism, as it has existed in the Americans since the beginning with respect to natives and so on.

Think about that for a second and think about the phenomenon that you are trying to grasp that the people who are supposedly benefitting from PC are rejecting it. Why might they not like being told by white liberals with a masters degree what they should think?

so didn't provide you with the assistance that you needed due to your disability, so your example was a negative example of PCism).

Oh, they would have provided me the assistance, provided they got to choose who did my notes, what they got paid, what hours they worked. Essentially they were in favor of providing assistance so long as they would be the beneficiary of it. That's not really 'assistance'. That's making sure you get paid first and whatever is left over goes to help the people you are supposed to be helping.

The ultimate conflict is this. I would have preferred to have just one notetaker. I also liked being able to talk to my notetaker, as it's someone I was going to be working with for the next 2 years. They saw it as just another university hire, that they should get to decide who and what and that I shouldn't have any contact with them.

These are examples of what PCism is trying to fight.

These are coming from white liberals with masters degrees.

There's a reason why the people that PC claims they are helping aren't supportive of it. There's a reason why the highest amount of support for PC comes from the people that usually get the jobs associated with it, white liberals with a masters degree.