History is a pyramid of skulls.

[The Mad Monk]

A few years ago, a museum in Boston had a program that let people wear kimonos for photos in front of a painting showing a white woman wearing a kimono; it was shut down following protests. This was a Japanese response:

[Elok]

Sure, but I'm perfectly willing to admit that my axioms are just as, if not significantly more, whacked out than those of other people. So I find value in discussions between people with very different starting foundations not because I might be shown to be wrong (again, I started crazy), but because the overlap between differing perspectives gives me slightly more insight into how I should interpret the world around me.

(This is of course predicated on me thinking another person's differing perspective is based in the kind of thoughtful, careful consideration I like to imagine mine is, which inevitably runs into the same problem of my personal biases that you mentioned.)

Well, you're also assuming that there is an objective right or truth to appeal to, rather than differing perspectives which cannot be arbitrated. I mean, I believe mine is right, or can be right, or rather that right can exist at all, because it's rooted in and appeals to the supernatural, the transcendent, what-have-you. I'd rather appeal to an unfalsifiable postulate than leave it all grounded in air. But I understand that others don't share that, and I have no means of convincing them.

[Lorizael]

A few years ago, a museum in Boston had a program that let people wear kimonos for photos in front of a painting showing a white woman wearing a kimono; it was shut down following protests. This was a Japanese response:

I have to say that in the middle of a relatively culturally homogeneous Japan, it's not surprising to find Japanese people who don't feel as if their culture is threatened by some random Americans wearing some of their traditional garb. (Which is not to say it couldn't be otherwise. You can definitely find Americans who feel as if American culture is threatened by, I dunno, kneeling during the national anthem.) But I can see why Japanese-Americans, isolated as they are from their cultural roots and not the dominant ethnicity, might feel otherwise.

Well, you're also assuming that there is an objective right or truth to appeal to, rather than differing perspectives which cannot be arbitrated.

Kind of. Fully explicating why I think there's value in gathering multiple perspectives involves this weird metaphor about radio interferometry and image deconvolution that I'm not sure I have the energy to type out in an illuminating way right now. Like you, I believe there may be an objective and (for lack of a better term) supernatural origin to what is right and true. But I also believe that individual humans (and other finite things) are literally incapable of understanding that truth. The best we can do at present is approach it incrementally by using many different sources to average out error. I don't think there are necessarily incompatible perspectives, just ones that intersect in ways that simply may not be grokable by humans. (This doesn't mean all ideas have value or that you can't be wrong about stuff, though. You can have poorly put together pieces of equipment that introduce more noise than information.)

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Radio interferometry - I really like that metaphor.

[Ben Kenobi]

But I also believe that individual humans (and other finite things) are literally incapable of understanding that truth.

If you change this to, "incapable of understanding the fullness of the truth, I would completely agree with you. Empricism would make the argument that we can come to an understanding of the universe even if our understanding is finite and incomplete.

[Dinner]

A few years ago, a museum in Boston had a program that let people wear kimonos for photos in front of a painting showing a white woman wearing a kimono; it was shut down following protests. This was a Japanese response:

Absolutely, ultimately it is just clothing so if Japanese can wear western style suits or blue jeans then westerners can do the same with Japanese clothing. To say otherwise is to be racist.

[The Mad Monk]

I have to say that in the middle of a relatively culturally homogeneous Japan, it's not surprising to find Japanese people who don't feel as if their culture is threatened by some random Americans wearing some of their traditional garb. (Which is not to say it couldn't be otherwise. You can definitely find Americans who feel as if American culture is threatened by, I dunno, kneeling during the national anthem.) But I can see why Japanese-Americans, isolated as they are from their cultural roots and not the dominant ethnicity, might feel otherwise.

I really don't feel that that is an adequate explanation, considering that Japanese culture is one of the few world cultures approaching American culture in actively exporting itself to the world. "Cool Japan" is a thing. Literally and officially.

[Lorizael]

I really don't feel that that is an adequate explanation, considering that Japanese culture is one of the few world cultures approaching American culture in actively exporting itself to the world. "Cool Japan" is a thing. Literally and officially.

Officially? Aw man, if you have to try...

[Kidlicious]

I really don't feel that that is an adequate explanation, considering that Japanese culture is one of the few world cultures approaching American culture in actively exporting itself to the world. "Cool Japan" is a thing. Literally and officially.

Sid's Sushi?

[The Mad Monk]

Wikipedia

Article from the Japan Times

TV show on NHK

Cool Japan Fund

...the Japanese never do anything half-way.

[Cort Haus]

I think it's possible that cultural appropriation

I got as far as 'cultural appropriation'. :-|

Seriously, Mr Zael, you are an intelligent man. Stop it, please.

One day I will read the whole thread.

[Lorizael]

I'd ask only that you literally finish that sentence. I think we're all very bad at having discussions about topics we disagree fundamentally on, and this here thread is an attempt to work through that.

[Cort Haus]

I'd ask only that you literally finish that sentence. I think we're all very bad at having discussions about topics we disagree fundamentally on, and this here thread is an attempt to work through that.

I did actually read the whole first page tbh, and just re-read your OP. My point was that it wasn't worth constructing a full response without reading everyone else's contribution because there was a very good chance that numerous people would have already said the same as I would.

It's the same as what we're talking about on the other thread - artistic, cultural and scientific developments are built on what has been done before, and laying down rules prohibiting, for example, white musicians playing rock and roll and everything descended from it because the original black bluesmen were denied equality by a semi-apartheid state is just nonsense.

Did you know that the traditional cockney accent has basically disappeared from sections of working-class London youth? It is still 'alive' in some areas around London but in much of the inner capital itself the white kids speak like the black kids because it's considered cooler. Is this cultural appropriation, or cultural aspiration and respect?

[Lorizael]

It's the same as what we're talking about on the other thread - artistic, cultural and scientific developments are built on what has been done before, and laying down rules prohibiting, for example, white musicians playing rock and roll and everything descended from it because the original black bluesmen were denied equality by a semi-apartheid state is just nonsense.

I've never suggested a ban... more like regulation. To me this feels a lot like me going, "Hey guys, some people are saying cars are contributing to smog. Since cars are obviously useful, do you think there's a way we could build cars that would avoid this problem?" And in response, people go, "But we can't get rid of cars! How will we get anywhere?!" And I do sincerely understand that there are some hippies out there saying, "Down with all cars!" But when I specifically say, "Hey, I'm not some hippy saying we should get rid of all cars, and I understand cars have value," it's frustrating that that's where the discussion goes. And yes, I also understand that some of you are saying, "Well, I don't actually believe the studies saying cars contribute to smog and here's why."

Did you know that the traditional cockney accent has basically disappeared from sections of working-class London youth? It is still 'alive' in some areas around London but in much of the inner capital itself the white kids speak like the black kids because it's considered cooler. Is this cultural appropriation, or cultural aspiration and respect?

How do the black kids feel about it? You can mean well and still be doing something hurtful, especially if the possible hurt is that other people don't feel you are listening to/respecting them. Like, "It's not racist to say black people are good at running!" No, you're still doing it wrong.

[Elok]

What kind of regulation do you propose? How would it be enforced? Who decides when it's being broken? There's no culture cops.