What differentiates a cult from a religion?

[Ben Kenobi]

Thanks Berz. Didn't realize I'd been missed.

[Ben Kenobi]

Read this book then, which goes far beyond arguments about single texts and describes where the false teaching of an immortal soul came into Christianity.

The problem with annihilationists is that it directly denies eternal punishment in Hell. Believing that only 'saved' souls are immortal denies the essential equality of all, and that we all possess immortal souls given to us by God. It also implicitly denies that one can lose one's salvation, etc. If one cannot lose one's salvation, then once one believes one to be 'saved' would justify any and all subsequent behavior.

It's contrary to the Christian faith. It's been well understood since about the 6th century, that the damned don't just cease to exist but suffer eternal torment in Hell.

[giblets]

I'm not sure what beliefs about eternal punishment vs. ceasing to exist have to do with the definition of a cult.

[Bereta_Eder]

I had to look up απολεσαι because even though it's very widely used today to mean "lose" (I lose something) I wanted to learn the etymological meaning too.
It's very ancient (no surprise)

It comes from από and ολλυμι. Ολλυμι in ancient greek meant to lose or to destroy

[Bereta_Eder]

καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι: φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

And don't fear those capable of bringing demise to the body, but have no power to bring demise to the soul. rather, fear the one capable of bringing waste/demise/loss to both the body and the soul
(don't know what εν γεένη means. maybe it was a place. it means "in γεένη")

found it
it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

[Bereta_Eder]

The problem with annihilationists is that it directly denies eternal punishment in Hell. Believing that only 'saved' souls are immortal denies the essential equality of all, and that we all possess immortal souls given to us by God. It also implicitly denies that one can lose one's salvation, etc. If one cannot lose one's salvation, then once one believes one to be 'saved' would justify any and all subsequent behavior.

It's contrary to the Christian faith. It's been well understood since about the 6th century, that the damned don't just cease to exist but suffer eternal torment in Hell.

A canadian professor claimed that it is exactly the immortality of the human soul as defined in christianity that gave birth to the enlightment ideal of the "unalienable rights", also known as universal human rights.


It was a pretty interesting and revolutionary approach and doubles as fun because you get to stick it to the enlightment enthousiasts and they can't retort

[Ben Kenobi]

And don't fear those capable of bringing demise to the body, but have no power to bring demise to the soul. rather, fear the one capable of bringing waste/demise/loss to both the body and the soul

That's a pretty good translation. Other translations use "waste", the vulgate uses 'Perdue" which is loss of soul and body in Hell.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not sure what beliefs about eternal punishment vs. ceasing to exist have to do with the definition of a cult.

If only the true believers have a soul, this is pretty consistent with cult behavior. It justifies many abuses against the 'unwashed'.

[Proteus_MST]

The "invention" of an immortal soul combined with eternal torment surely is one step upwards in the control of your sheep.

If, in previous religions your soul just would get destroyed for you doing bad things (for example in egyption mythology ... if Anubis found the soul lighter of heavier than the feather of Ma' at, it woudl get devoured).
Some follower of this religion might say:
Hey, I just rebel against the gods ... the worst thing that may happen is , that my soul gets destroyed ... end of all suffering and I won't have to serve Pharaoh even in my afterlife.

Whereas someone who believed that the soul suffers eternal pain after death for any non absolved sins he does in his life before death, may think not only twice, but even 3 or 4 times before commiting anything that may be seen as a grave sin.
It even is quite lucrative, as the clerics may even make their sheep pay lots of money for rituals or items that will serve to ease the suffering of their beloved ones who (according to their belief) already decended to an afterlife in hell.

[Bereta_Eder]

yes but this is for the uneducated.

the interesting part is wether the distilled essense of christianity has shaped modern reality.
that was the point of the immortal soul ~ universal human rights. That can be brought even to justice (even the one who is sure to be guilty has certain rights - the divine essense, immortality in him/her ~ prescribes these rights and those rights are derived from it etc)

[ZEE]

The "invention" of an immortal soul combined with eternal torment surely is one step upwards in the control of your sheep.

If, in previous religions your soul just would get destroyed for you doing bad things (for example in egyption mythology ... if Anubis found the soul lighter of heavier than the feather of Ma' at, it woudl get devoured).
Some follower of this religion might say:
Hey, I just rebel against the gods ... the worst thing that may happen is , that my soul gets destroyed ... end of all suffering and I won't have to serve Pharaoh even in my afterlife.

Whereas someone who believed that the soul suffers eternal pain after death for any non absolved sins he does in his life before death, may think not only twice, but even 3 or 4 times before commiting anything that may be seen as a grave sin.
It even is quite lucrative, as the clerics may even make their sheep pay lots of money for rituals or items that will serve to ease the suffering of their beloved ones who (according to their belief) already decended to an afterlife in hell.

This is a very excellent point.

[Bereta_Eder]

the revolutionary part in this approach of the canadian is this:
enlightment was supposed to form a new modus operandi "free of the schackles" of the metaphysical.

Humanity, having ridden itself from religious superstitions, can now carve up its own future and guarantee dignity to all human beings by assigning to them rights that cannot be ever taken away and are endowed to them simply because they are people.

How ironic that this can be seen as deriving from the very "religious mambo jumbo" that the enlightment frowned upon, and actually it is a core teaching.

[giblets]

If only the true believers have a soul, this is pretty consistent with cult behavior. It justifies many abuses against the 'unwashed'.

There's a pretty big difference between believing someone's soul can be destroyed when they die, and believing they never had a soul to begin with.

[Ben Kenobi]

Whereas someone who believed that the soul suffers eternal pain after death for any non absolved sins he does in his life before death, may think not only twice, but even 3 or 4 times before commiting anything that may be seen as a grave sin.

Indeed. It is a consequence of the immortal soul that our actions in this life take on much greater importance. We are playing for real stakes.

[Dry]

If, in previous religions your soul just would get destroyed for you doing bad things (for example in egyption mythology ... if Anubis found the soul lighter of heavier than the feather of Ma' at, it woudl get devoured).
Some follower of this religion might say:
Hey, I just rebel against the gods ... the worst thing that may happen is , that my soul gets destroyed ... end of all suffering and I won't have to serve Pharaoh even in my afterlife.

IIRC, ancient religions do not have the concept of reward or punishment in the afterlife.
I remember having read somwhere that for Egyptian mythology, the concept of afterlife or 'soul', was not for the common men (some kind of mumification ritual was needed).
And the weighting of the soul was not a judgment, but it was more like an observation. In modern words it was more an evaluation of "Were you true to yourself?" or "Do you have any remorse/regrets?" than "Did you follow the god's commands?"
For the Romans, there was no afterlife punishment or reward for worshipping one or other god. You could gain favors of a particular god for some punctual action. Or you could become an unlucky victim, a collateral damage, of some other god's whim. Everybody eventually end up in Hades were you became an errant soul, only a shadow of your former self. More kind of a zombie or a ghost than a real person with desires and emotions. No pain, no pleasure.
Ancient religions, were less of following some [absolute] morality than not offending the god's to avoid being killed by one of them or gaining some favor to your advantage. Sacrifice this or that to obtain victory on your ennemies, follow this or that ritual so winter will end and summer will return.
The ancient gods might reward those usefull to them, but usually they do not care about mortals.
The concept of heaven and hell as reward and punishment in an afterlife is more recent. I am not familiar enough with the jewish religion if they have the concept. I think both Christianity and Islam do have the concept.