results thread [us elections]

[ZEE]

Just realized I mistook Proteus's poast for Oerdin. My apologies.

My mind is failing at a faster rate than I thought. I just hope my final days are painless.

[Dinner]

I am surprised Oerdin has nevar heard of Section 5150, since he lives in California. Down here they call it Baker Act; or you have been Baker Act'd.

I use the term 5150 because it has a certain swagger and bravado. Telling people I have been Baker Act'd is a humiliation, as opposed to saying 'AAHZ has a 5150 under his belt,' which commands respect.

Sent from my HTC Desire 626 using Tapatalk

Sorry, I don't work in law enforcement or mental health so I was unfamiliar with the Baker Act.

Edit: I was wondering why you were quoting someone else but mentioning me. Now I see it was just a simple misunderstanding. No worries, these things happen.

[Jon Miller]

For me the important question is: Will it help them or not?
I it helps them to get happy (and maybe have successful sexual relationships in the gender tthey belong to), then, why not?

This is generally what I think. But the psychologists/etc have ruled that it is not a mental illness which then makes me wonder if 'will it help them or not' is being evaluated or just assumed.

JM
(especially because, despite the obvious biases in the field, there keep being hints of studies showing that gender reassignment surgery often doesn't help)

(it is like pot, the biases in the field just didn't allow it to be tested for a long time)

[Proteus_MST]

Just realized I mistook Proteus's poast for Oerdin. My apologies.

My mind is failing at a faster rate than I thought. I just hope my final days are painless.

Was already wondrng if you replied to a posting I didn't see

[Dinner]

This is generally what I think. But the psychologists/etc have ruled that it is not a mental illness which then makes me wonder if 'will it help them or not' is being evaluated or just assumed.

JM
(especially because, despite the obvious biases in the field, there keep being hints of studies showing that gender reassignment surgery often doesn't help)

(it is like pot, the biases in the field just didn't allow it to be tested for a long time)

The claim I have seen from trans posters (all two of them) on another forum was that "gender disphoria" can be successfully treated using gender reassignment surgery. I would be fine with that if it proves to be true but would like to see hard evidence of improved outcomes which last.

Advocates usually are extremely evasive about why post transitioning suicide rates remain sky high (the last numbers I was was 25 times higher than average for pretransition trans people but still 20-21 times higher than average for post transition people). The usual excuse is to claim other people were not accepting enough of their transition but that truly smells dodgy to me as a claim. It is a convenient way to avoid responsibily and blame other people, It also doesn't explain why such a relatively large number try to transition back to their original sex. Though I am sure the excuse will be they were some how oppressed into it.

My hypothesis is that the reason they remain at such greatly exaggerated risk for suicide is because they really do have something mentally wrong with them even if advocates have succeeded in getting it reclassified as no longer a mental illness issue. Also, I have seen at least one transperson advocate that minor children (who are not legally competent to make life long decisions) , should be allowed to "transition" as young as age 5 to avoid an "unwanted puberty. To this person's credit he/she has now backed off this line.

I personally find it absolutely reprehensible that "advocates" want to enable children to make this decision when children can't even enter into a legally binding contract on their own. This is especially true because the MAJORITY of children who have nongender conforming traits as children really do simply out grow it. Of course, these advocates claim the kids are brainwashed by society into giving up wanting to be trans but I just see it as kids being kids and just because a kid wants to experiment or a boy wants to play with a Barbie doll that does not make them trans. Now, once they are 18 they are legal adults and can do what ever they please and that is their right. I also do not support Trump's proposed trans ban in the military. I am sceptical of medical insurance paying (meaning the rest of us pay) optional cosmetic surgery as some how being medically necissary.

After all the claim is they are so unhappy they are killing themselves yet after the "treatment" they are still killing themselves as 80%-90% of the pre "treatment" rate so how effective is this "treatment"?

[Jon Miller]

There is also huge amounts of money involved in reassignment surgery and treatments.

Not saying that that plays a role... but it is suspicious.

JM
(Transexuals that I know claim that the science has decided that it is successful and base their choices and actions on that. Even those with 6 figure salaries pay out their savings and retirement for it and as they age the plastic surgery does not stop.)

[giblets]

"Why do these nutty freaks have an unusually high suicide rate?", ponders Oerdin, as he drinks craft beer and eats overpriced pizza.

[Proteus_MST]

There is also huge amounts of money involved in reassignment surgery and treatments.

Not saying that that plays a role... but it is suspicious.

JM
(Transexuals that I know claim that the science has decided that it is successful and base their choices and actions on that. Even those with 6 figure salaries pay out their savings and retirement for it and as they age the plastic surgery does not stop.)

The quality of the surgery (and training (i.e. speechtraining and/or how to move as the other gender) may also play an important role in happiness after transition.
There seem lots of good surgeries where you don't recognize that the person once belonged to its birth gender (I posted a few pics of IMHO well done results)

But there also seem to be a lot of examples where you immediately suspect that this peson wasn't born with this gender.

Similarly there seem to be differences regarding the functionality of the new sexual organs (i.e. whether or not one is abvle to get an orgasm with them).
Must be frustrating to undergo all this hassle if surgery and hormone treatment and then have the surgeries being so botched that you are taken for a crossdresser () and also not even being able to experience an orgasm anymore.

Perhaps a large percentage of the people unhappy after transitioning are the result of such botched transitioning processes

[Kidlicious]

They tell a person with a mental illness that they can turn them into a woman. Then when the fail, they call that a botch?

[Proteus_MST]

They tell a person with a mental illness that they can turn them into a woman. Then when the fail, they call that a botch?

Considering that surgeons today seem to be well capable of creating Neo-Vaginas that are capable of orgasms (by preserving the tip of the Penis and using it as Clitoris) ... and also are able to turn males into convincing looking women, by means of cosmetic surgery, the term "botched" seems to be justified, if a transition doesn't obtain these results.
(and I guess it is a matter of money, i.e. well trained surgeons (with a high probability of success) cost more money than less well trained surgeons ... but I guess it is more a problem in the USA than, for example, in germany ... AFAIK in germany, if someone is diagnosed as transgender by a psychologists, health insurance takes over most costs for transitioning (and germany has universal healthcare -> everyone has healthcare))

[Kidlicious]

Considering that surgeons today seem to be well capable of creating Neo-Vaginas that are capable of orgasms (by preserving the tip of the Penis and using it as Clitoris) ... and also are able to turn males into convincing looking women, by means of cosmetic surgery, the term "botched" seems to be justified, if a transition doesn't obtain these results.
(and I guess it is a matter of money, i.e. well trained surgeons (with a high probability of success) cost more money than less well trained surgeons ... but I guess it is more a problem in the USA than, for example, in germany ... AFAIK in germany, if someone is diagnosed as transgender by a psychologists, health insurance takes over most costs for transitioning (and germany has universal healthcare -> everyone has healthcare))

Well in the case of Jenner, apparently he doesn't like men. He like women. But I don't know if you can go by what they say. But Jenner doesn't look like a woman to me. Jenner looks like a transgender person. I don't know about his parts, but I don't think any straight men are going to be interested. Maybe a small group.

[Proteus_MST]

Well in the case of Jenner, apparently he doesn't like men. He like women. But I don't know if you can go by what they say. But Jenner doesn't look like a woman to me. Jenner looks like a transgender person. I don't know about his parts, but I don't think any straight men are going to be interested. Maybe a small group.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are not connected, according to nowadays knowledge.
That means, you can well be a male to female transgender and become a lesbian, or a female to male transgender and become gay.

As for Jenner, I don't know if there are (or are not) males who would be interested in her ... but I agree that she isn't one of the best results of such a transition.
May have something to do with the age ... AFAIK the results get better, the earlier in age the transition is made.

There surely are lots of examples (a few of them running in beauty pageants) where I wouldn't assume a second, that they ever had been male
Examples:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Kidlicious]

Well, all I can say that I fell sorry for Jenner. He looked better as a man. You can call me gay if you want. I don't care.

[ricketyclik]

Hello Gay.

[Proteus_MST]

Well, all I can say that I fell sorry for Jenner. He looked better as a man. You can call me gay if you want. I don't care.

Wel, more important than the questin, whether you found him more attractive as man than as a woman
(which wouldn't have made a difference, as s/he was and is attracted to women, so no chance for you, unless you undergo a transition as well),
seems to be, whether Jenner now, as a woman, is more happy than previously, as a man.

Never read about her complaining about the transition (and wishing she never had done it), so my guess is that she is happy now and the ttrasition was the right thing for her to do