UK government loses Brexit court case.

[kentonio]

well i simply disagree with that. it's a binary choice and, therefore, must be 50%+1 in my view.

but on your other point, the brexit vote isn't short-term populism, it's the culmination of years and years of governments ignoring a large section of the population and, more broadly, european governments deciding the direction of the EU without listening to people or working to convince them, and, as we saw on several occasions, simply ignoring democratically expressed objection to it rather than addressing them.

This time it wasn't merely short term populism, but that's why the 60% rule should be in place. This time was a combination of what you describe, and a short term campaign of complete and total dishonesty by the Leave campaign who openly lied repeatedly. If the only come back you have to that is 'well the politians lied about Europe for years' then your case is pretty weak.

[C0ckney]

i think you'd be hard pressed to find a political campaign, certainly at a national level, that didn't contain some element of dishonesty, broken promises, etc.

but ultimately it was clear question and a clear choice, and both sides had ample time to prepare and put their case. remain lost not only because of their lacklustre campaign, but also because of underlying issues that stem from governments not listening to people for a long time. it is the height of irony, though wholly unsurprising, that the response from many remainers has been 'well, let's just ignore/try to wriggle out of the referendum result'.

[kentonio]

i think you'd be hard pressed to find a political campaign, certainly at a national level, that didn't contain some element of dishonesty, broken promises, etc.

but ultimately it was clear question and a clear choice, and both sides had ample time to prepare and put their case. remain lost not only because of their lacklustre campaign, but also because of underlying issues that stem from governments not listening to people for a long time. it is the height of irony, though wholly unsurprising, that the response from many remainers has been 'well, let's just ignore/try to wriggle out of the referendum result'.

I spent plenty of years criticising the Europhile politicians for deceiving the British people. I see absolutely no reason why the Europsceptics should suddenly get a pass for doing not only the same but considerably worse. Apart from a couple of examples (Ted Heath in particular) most of the pro-EU dishonesty was vague dancing around the truth and misinterpretation, the Leave campaign didn't bother with that and went straight for direct lies and deception. Ignore the result? Hell, I'd not only ignore the result but send a letter to every Leave voter laying out every damn lie they voted for and ask why they were too ****ing stupid to open a web browser and bother actually fact checking any of it.

[Dinner]

I honestly expect this to be over turned as Parliament voted to enable the vote.

[kentonio]

I honestly expect this to be over turned as Parliament voted to enable the vote.

Our political system doesn't work that way.

[Bereta_Eder]

I honestly expect this to be over turned as Parliament voted to enable the vote.

quoted to laugh at you when it won't

[kentonio]

Although our Supreme Court is a fairly recent invention, and shortly after it was established it threw out a case against the big banks by ripped off customers. It was just as the financial crash was starting and it was set to cost the banks tens of billions. The public (and we're talking potentially millions of people here) had won in both lower courts, yet the new Supreme Court threw it out on a technicality and it disappeared. Since then, I've been deeply suspicious of them.

[-Jrabbit]

One should be suspicious of all government offices - especially those with ultimate say-so.

Just ask Al Gore.

[C0ckney]

I spent plenty of years criticising the Europhile politicians for deceiving the British people. I see absolutely no reason why the Europsceptics should suddenly get a pass for doing not only the same but considerably worse. Apart from a couple of examples (Ted Heath in particular) most of the pro-EU dishonesty was vague dancing around the truth and misinterpretation, the Leave campaign didn't bother with that and went straight for direct lies and deception. Ignore the result? Hell, I'd not only ignore the result but send a letter to every Leave voter laying out every damn lie they voted for and ask why they were too ****ing stupid to open a web browser and bother actually fact checking any of it.

it's not just a question of deceiving, and indeed i wouldn't really put it like at all. the issue is that people were not asked about the direction of the EU. they were neither consulted nor persuaded; instead they were told: this is what it is, and if you don't like it, tough, you're having it anyway. on the continent, when citizens did vote against this direction, they were either told to vote again until they gave the right answer, or had their vote simply ignored. these high-handed and arrogant actions on the part of the political class are having serious consequences, of which brexit is just one.

as i've commented before, it's remarkable how many people only have faith in democracy insofar as it delivers the results they want.

[Aeson]

I have hope in democracy. Not faith in it. Certainly it can get things very wrong sometimes. But tends to do better than the alternatives.

[Bereta_Eder]

If you piss off people they will vote against you.
Terrorizing doesn't work,

the no at the referendum was on par with the no to the axis. proud never defeated. bring it ooooon *****

then alexis turned it into a yes because financial sense and political trickery


however british are honest. a straight question: in or our

in ours it was "do you agree with directive 010 par 4353453452345345 of the proposed loan contract to greece number 3245234523632465436563645346534634764647567"

yes or no?

piss off was the simple answer

(but as I said, that can't be done in the british case because the question was clear)

[kentonio]

it's not just a question of deceiving, and indeed i wouldn't really put it like at all.

They were directly lied to on several occasions, the Ted Heath one is the one that rankles most with me because years later he admitted it and basically said 'well you can't trust the public with things like that' which was obscene.

[C0ckney]

They were directly lied to on several occasions, the Ted Heath one is the one that rankles most with me because years later he admitted it and basically said 'well you can't trust the public with things like that' which was obscene.

that is all true but rather besides the point in my view.

[Ben Kenobi]

In the long run this will crystallize opposition to the European Union. Telling people that they cannot do something that they want to do tends to do that. The UK wants to leave and eventually that will happen. Courts or no.

[Ben Kenobi]

You have 47%-48% who didn't want an exit. 60% sounds appropriate. Then to have it approved by parliament with majority vote.

Unfortunately that's not the way democracy works. The people had their say and they voted to Leave. The will of the people ought to be respected.