Which Religion's Slavers Were Better?

[Ming]

It is a major difference between the Bible and the Quran. The Quran is much more of rulebook, sort of like Deuteronomy (which both Christians and Jews say is was a rulebook for 1000BC Israel given by Moses... or an interpretation of that rulebook at 300 BC ).

JM

Yeah... funny that. Whenever Christians want to justify some crappy argument, they quote the bible. But when it's outdated or doesn't support their arguments, it's not a rule book. You can't have it both ways.

And Kid... All Muslims don't support slavery... just like all Muslims aren't terrorists. The majority don't support either.

[Aeson]

Discuss the narrative of the full Bible where it expresses that sinners should be stoned or that Christians should believe in slavery.

Remember that the Bible is not a rulebook. It is a history of a people's experience with God.

It is a major difference between the Bible and the Quran. The Quran is much more of rulebook, sort of like Deuteronomy (which both Christians and Jews say is was a rulebook for 1000BC Israel given by Moses... or an interpretation of that rulebook at 300 BC ).

JM

It depends on how the individual treats it. There are Christians who still treat the OT as a rule book (and even a science text book). Certainly throughout history there have been terrible things done by Christians who held the Bible as justification for those acts. There are also Muslims who treat the Quran as something other than a rule book, who exist within liberal democracies as law abiding citizens.

More importantly though, view those statements made in the full narrative of this thread. Ben is claiming that Islam as a whole is bad because some Muslims have done bad things, so even when law abiding Muslims are within their rights by law they shouldn't be able to exercise those rights ... the natural analog to that is to point out that Christians also do bad things, so by Ben's logic Christianity as a whole is bad and even law abiding Christians shouldn't be able to exercise their rights because of it.

It is an intentionally absurd claim used to show the absurdity of Ben's claim as well as his personal hypocrisy.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

...Shouldn't we get back on topic, not feed the threadcrapping the thread-starter has made his feelings so clear about?

[Elok]

It is an intentionally absurd claim used to show the absurdity of Ben's claim as well as his personal hypocrisy.

If there is one thing that has been proven abundantly clear over my years here, it is that there is no reason to show the absurdity of Ben's claims, or generally engage with him on most topics. On a very limited field--matters of arcane church doctrine and history which most of you aren't interested in--he can be a valuable resource. On all others, he can be relied upon to continue repeating precisely the same bad arguments, over and over, no matter how often or how soundly they are defeated. Nor is there any real danger that anyone will be persuaded to his POV. Mostly, he's one of those wobbly punching dummies that always bounces back no matter how hard you punch it, which is great fun for people who are into that sort of thing.

However, it is a great discourtesy to the people whose threads get interrupted by that fun, which is not remotely interesting to read and invariably drowns out all other discussion. When his chief combatants are mods (as they frequently are), you can't even slap both sides on ignore and scroll past the grey blocks. You're stuck weeding through pages and pages of crap. His entry to a thread thus kills conversations more reliably than a Holocaust joke.

So, while I'm not a mod or anything like one, could I kindly ask you guys to take this stuff somewhere else? We've got Lori, C0ckney, JM, me, and everybody else ready to discuss this whole new subject I can't recall us ever discussing before, and you're dumping the same old "HEY DESIGNATED HORRIBLE PERSON OF THE FORUM YOU ARE A HORRIBLE PERSON." Well no ****.

[Elok]

It is a major difference between the Bible and the Quran. The Quran is much more of rulebook, sort of like Deuteronomy (which both Christians and Jews say is was a rulebook for 1000BC Israel given by Moses... or an interpretation of that rulebook at 300 BC ).

JM

I could only get a third of the way through the Quran; its scattershot organization drove me batty. However, I wouldn't say the part I got through was all, or even mostly, rules. It was about equal parts Biblical-ish anecdotes, rules, and poetic flourishes or declarations along the general lines of the book of Proverbs, or possibly Psalms. The main distinction (aside from length) is that the Quran is very much the work of one author and personality.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder if sola scriptura was not in some sense inherited from Islam. This is not as absurd as it might sound; iconoclasm is generally recognized as a Muslim influence, and by Luther's time Europeans had been absorbing ideas from Muslims by the truckload for about seven centuries or so IIRC--first from Spain, then from the Levant. And I don't know of any Christian antecedent prior to Luther for using the Bible as a rulebook by itself, without reference to any hierarchy or organization (though with allowance for interpretive schools or traditions). And yet that last sentence perfectly describes the Quran's role in Islam. I wonder why nobody has suggested this. Is there an older SS tradition within Christianity? The Lollards, maybe? Where did they get it from? What's the genealogy of the idea?

[Aeson]

I realise the ignore feature isn't perfect. Mods don't get to ignore anyone either. (And as in this case, always get called into the worst of it.) So I've separated out the "my slavers are better than their slavers" part of it, and any tangents off that.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Ignore feature works just fine for me.

[dannubis]

Aeson, kick him off your site.
I know he always delivers when it comes to reaching new lows but is he contributing?

[Kidlicious]

Yeah... funny that. Whenever Christians want to justify some crappy argument, they quote the bible. But when it's outdated or doesn't support their arguments, it's not a rule book. You can't have it both ways.

And Kid... All Muslims don't support slavery... just like all Muslims aren't terrorists. The majority don't support either.

How do you get to act just like BK, but you never get cussed out? Oh yeah, you're a mod

I said they believe in slavery if they believe in Islam. Slavery is certainly a central theme of Islam. Islam is not only pro-slavery. It instructs brutality against slaves as well as women, homosexuals, and non-believers of all sorts.

STOP COMPARING IT TO A PEACEFUL RELIGION, BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU LOOK BRUTAL AND A HATER OF PEACE!!!

[Kidlicious]

I could only get a third of the way through the Quran; its scattershot organization drove me batty. However, I wouldn't say the part I got through was all, or even mostly, rules. It was about equal parts Biblical-ish anecdotes, rules, and poetic flourishes or declarations along the general lines of the book of Proverbs, or possibly Psalms. The main distinction (aside from length) is that the Quran is very much the work of one author and personality.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder if sola scriptura was not in some sense inherited from Islam. This is not as absurd as it might sound; iconoclasm is generally recognized as a Muslim influence, and by Luther's time Europeans had been absorbing ideas from Muslims by the truckload for about seven centuries or so IIRC--first from Spain, then from the Levant. And I don't know of any Christian antecedent prior to Luther for using the Bible as a rulebook by itself, without reference to any hierarchy or organization (though with allowance for interpretive schools or traditions). And yet that last sentence perfectly describes the Quran's role in Islam. I wonder why nobody has suggested this. Is there an older SS tradition within Christianity? The Lollards, maybe? Where did they get it from? What's the genealogy of the idea?

It's a reaction to church authority making **** up you idiot.

[Kidlicious]

People who believe that the modern church can not make **** up as they go has jack sh** to do with believing that the bible advocates slavery.

[Ming]

How do you get to act just like BK, but you never get cussed out? Oh yeah, you're a mod

Coming from somebody who usually responds to people with insults... funny stuff.

I said they believe in slavery if they believe in Islam. Slavery is certainly a central theme of Islam. Islam is not only pro-slavery. It instructs brutality against slaves as well as women, homosexuals, and non-believers of all sorts.

And the bible says some great things about slavery, women, homosexuals and non-believers also... so what's your point.
Your view that slavery is a central theme of Islam is just pure stupidity on your part and shows just how much you must hate Islam.

STOP COMPARING IT TO A PEACEFUL RELIGION, BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU LOOK BRUTAL AND A HATER OF PEACE!!!

Tell that to all the people that have lost their lives to Christians... And tell that to all the children that Catholic priests have raped and then covered up simply to save face.
Your "peaceful religion" isn't all that peaceful either.

[kentonio]

Then why didn't another culture actually free the slaves? Since, as we all know, slavery is a purely Christian phenomenon.

Why didn't another culture free the slaves held captive by the completely dominant culture on the planet at that time? You're a joke.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why didn't another culture free the slaves held captive by the completely dominant culture on the planet at that time? You're a joke.

Soo.... Christians actually freed the slaves?

[Ben Kenobi]

**** you, BK. Just **** you. **** you for being completely unable to stay on topic and derailing the thread with your bigoted bull**** and trolling others into responding to your tired old **** with the same goddamn arguments we've been having with you for over a decade. You are such a terrible piece of **** whose only function on this site is to destroy conversation and discussion. What an awful, slimy, filthy piece of crap you are. Can't you have the goddamn decency to shut the **** up and keep your awful beliefs to yourself?

No, Lori. You started a thread bashing Christianity. Then you ran away when a Christian came out and challenged your assertion that Christianity is a religion that promotes slavery. Now you hide behind labels calling the Christians bigots for sticking up for their religion.

In any case, the history is clear. Wilberforce freed the slaves, banned the slave trade, all in the name of the Christian religion which teaches that all men are equal. What am I supposed to say? "Oh yes, Lori. You are most right. Christians are responsible for the introduction of slavery", when the truth is the exact opposite. Slavery didn't begin with Christians, but Christians ended it. When you've succeeded in driving out Christianity to adopt secular humanism, slavery will return. Oh, you'll have other names for it, but it will return and you'll call people all sorts of names when they point it out. "Hey, Lori, this slavery bull**** is not cool, why support it?"