Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Giancarlo]

Not according to the various Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians and Buddhists that I know and have engaged in indepth religious conversations with. And the same for the atheists and agnostics who I know who have spent even a little bit of time learning and studying about what different religious groups believe (which is a fair number of them, in fact the ones that don't have no interest in talking about religion or are Randians).

Your arrogance is deeply troubling. I have had discussions with people throughout the world and from different parts of the world. I did a lot of traveling between semesters.

If you did in fact have these conversations, you did not go into any of them with any sort of understanding. You have your biases so don't even try to cover it up.

And your classes from a Western university in PoliSci seem to have not given you a very good starting point to discuss religion with people who have different beliefs than yours (western atheism). Of course, that likely was not their purpose so there is no reason for you to feel upset.

JM

You arrogant man! My education does give me a very strong basis. I can very well discuss with other people. Your religious beliefs leave you at a disadvantage in any form of discussion with other people of different religions and cultures. By the way, several of my professors were from different countries and cultures.. As were many of my classmates.

You are rudely dismissive of anyone who disagrees with your closed minded ranting.

[Jon Miller]

Gee, yes Jon I must never have read the bible or looked into Christianity in any way. Obviously because I disagree with you, I must have no understanding or experience with any of it.

Your statements repeatedly demonstrate that you have little experience outside of the anti-Christian atheism sites. That is what your posts show. It shows in your almost complete lack of knowledge about Christians beliefs or what is the in Bible or Christian Theology/Doctrine.

If you were an atheist who had more experience, like a former priest who become an agnostic/atheist who I had many conversations with. Or my Jewish friend who is an atheist (she was never a theist, her mother was an atheist and her grandparents were deists, but she still bothered to learn about Judaism and Christianity). Or my Armenian friend who is an agnostic/atheist (basically only stepped inside of a church a couple of times). Or my friend who was a former Muslim and is now an agnostic/atheist. Or any of the many many many other atheists who I have discussed Christianity or religion in general with.

Even the former protestant Randian, who is the non-theist friend in real life who I have the hardest time conversing with (because of his insistence that narrative and story are not very valid ways to present truth and that it should be instead presented with definition (his definitions) and rule like statements), is more knowledgeable than you.

JM

[Jon Miller]

In other words, you're happy to talk about religion just as long as its on terms that you personally feel comfortable with and which fit into your pre-existing conclusions. You'll talk to atheists, but you expect them to debate fine points of theology, not just question the entire structure on which your belief system stands.

No, we talk about the entire structure. The existence of God. What faith is and if faith is valuable. Whether the Bible (or any Holy Book) is trustworthy (although honestly it is usually religionists who are more concerned about this, atheists have already made their decision about the whole point so the trustworthiness of the Bible is unimportant to them).

We just don't talk about things which were answered 100s or 1000s of years ago, or that could be understood if you read the next sentence in the Bible, or so on.

Or if we do talk about something that was answered 100 or 1000 years ago, we include the answer of 100 or 1000 years ago and talk about why it isn't a good answer or is (see Problem of Evil/etc).

JM

[Ming]

Just because he thinks the concept of religion is simply a fantasy doesn't mean he is not knowledgeable on the topic.

[Giancarlo]

Your statements repeatedly demonstrate that you have little experience outside of the anti-Christian atheism sites. That is what your posts show. It shows in your almost complete lack of knowledge about Christians beliefs or what is the in Bible or Christian Theology/Doctrine.

If you were an atheist who had more experience, like a former priest who become an agnostic/atheist who I had many conversations with. Or my Jewish friend who is an atheist (she was never a theist, her mother was an atheist and her grandparents were deists, but she still bothered to learn about Judaism and Christianity). Or my Armenian friend who is an agnostic/atheist (basically only stepped inside of a church a couple of times). Or my friend who was a former Muslim and is now an agnostic/atheist. Or any of the many many many other atheists who I have discussed Christianity or religion in general with.

Even the former protestant Randian, who is the non-theist friend in real life who I have the hardest time conversing with (because of his insistence that narrative and story are not very valid ways to present truth and that it should be instead presented with definition (his definitions) and rule like statements), is more knowledgeable than you.

JM

So he has this friend he talks with, and somehow he is more knowledgeable than us.

Sure... Keep believing that.

And just because I am agnostic, doesn't mean I am not knowledgeable.

Btw, I was once Catholic... Now agnostic (some may say weak atheist). I guess according to your logic, I am in an even stronger position.

[Jon Miller]

Just because he thinks the concept of religion is simply a fantasy doesn't mean he is not knowledgeable on the topic.

True. I have had good conversations with people who agree with him and are knowledgable about Christianity.

He displays his basic lack of knowledge in a million other ways (by not knowing the standard interpretations of Christians, by not knowing what the next sentence says, by not knowing even what Jesus is recorded to have said about something, and so on).

JM

[Giancarlo]

True. I have had good conversations with people who agree with him and are knowledgable about Christianity.

He displays his basic lack of knowledge in a million other ways (by not knowing the standard interpretations of Christians, by not knowing what the next sentence says, by not knowing even what Jesus is recorded to have said about something, and so on).

JM

Because you say so...

[Jon Miller]

So he has this friend he talks with, and somehow he is more knowledgeable than us.

Sure... Keep believing that.

And just because I am agnostic, doesn't mean I am not knowledgeable.

Btw, I was once Catholic... Now agnostic (some may say weak atheist). I guess according to your logic, I am in an even stronger position.

Who should I believe is knowledgeable. My own experience based on the many atheists, agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc, etc that I have talked with, the many Christians of all types that I have talked with and are believers, the theologians that I have studied (both atheists and christian of all types), the books I have read, the sermons I have listened to (including by non-theists).

Or a guy on the internet with a PoliSci degree.

JM

[kentonio]

Your statements repeatedly demonstrate that you have little experience outside of the anti-Christian atheism sites. That is what your posts show. It shows in your almost complete lack of knowledge about Christians beliefs or what is the in Bible or Christian Theology/Doctrine.

Cool story bro. Firstly I have no idea what is printed on anti-Christian atheism sites, because I don't remember ever actually having visited one. Some of us don't feel any need to have constant affirmation of our beliefs from others. Having been brought up in a Christian culture, having attended Sunday schools as a kid, and then having spent a number of years exploring as many different religions as possible, both conventional and not so conventional, it amuses me greatly to be told I don't know anything about Christianity or what is in the bible. Especially having read the damn thing several times.

I would readily admit however that if you wrote a particular passage, I will likely have no idea what the following passage says until I look it up. Because knowing every passage of a 750,000-ish word book off by heart is a sign of obsessive compulsion, and is certainly not healthy. Then again I probably know every line from the movie Lost Boys, so I guess we all have our crosses to bear.

[Jon Miller]

Here is a good collection from a non-theist. You can start by reading educated atheists and then if you choose go on to educated Christians/Hindus/Jews/etc.

http://blog.supplysideliberal.com/tagged/religionhumanitiesscience

JM

[kentonio]

Here is a good collection from a non-theist. You can start by reading educated atheists and then if you choose go on to educated Christians/Hindus/Jews/etc.

http://blog.supplysideliberal.com/tagged/religionhumanitiesscience

JM

Your entire argument so far has been a convoluted form of 'WAHHHHH you're stupid and ignorant because you aren't referencing theology that I consider relevant in your arguments!!'. I can only assume that you are either incapable or just unwilling to question the actual foundations of your faith in ways that step outside your comfort zone. Worry not, I won't trouble your poor mind with any more uncomfortable concepts.

[Giancarlo]

Who should I believe is knowledgeable. My own experience based on the many atheists, agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc, etc that I have talked with, the many Christians of all types that I have talked with and are believers, the theologians that I have studied (both atheists and christian of all types), the books I have read, the sermons I have listened to (including by non-theists).

Or a guy on the internet with a PoliSci degree.

JM

Awesome story!

I already said I did a lot of traveling and I have friends from various countries, even Iran. My Iranian friend is fully supportive of me as a person, and has a different mentality than older people in his country he tells me.

Your experience is unsupported and anecdotal at best. It doesn't really mean anything to me.

By the way, I am from a different country, was Catholic once, I am gay, and have done a lot of traveling throughout the world. So my experience is worthless right?

[giblets]

Christianity is make-believe

[Bespin]

Awesome story!

I already said I did a lot of traveling and I have friends from various countries, even Iran. My Iranian friend is fully supportive of me as a person, and has a different mentality than older people in his country he tells me.

Your experience is unsupported and anecdotal at best. It doesn't really mean anything to me.

By the way, I am from a different country, was Catholic once, I am gay, and have done a lot of traveling throughout the world. So my experience is worthless right?

Well, your experience is as worthless to Jon Miller as his are to you. Your opinions are just that, subjective opinions based on your own experiences. The create your reality, but seen from another perspective, your world is not the same as mine, or even Jon Millers.

[Giancarlo]

Well, your experience is as worthless to Jon Miller as his are to you. Your opinions are just that, subjective opinions based on your own experiences. The create your reality, but seen from another perspective, your world is not the same as mine, or even Jon Millers.

Get a grip. I was using his own argument against him. Since he holds other viewpoints of people from different cultures so highly, I asked him why not mine?

Try to read more carefully next time.

BTW, I am someone who values empirical evidence and science. My world is based largely on reality. What is your world based on?