Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[rah]

Ben, has the military ever been called in to collect taxes? So saying that if you reduce the military will make it impossible to collect taxes, is just another of your insane opinions.
You should also really look at the charter school scandals before you claim that privatization of schools is the answer.

[kentonio]

He didn't write it in His name.

And He knows that humans have terribly misused even the best words and messages from Him (how many people kill in the name of Jesus or curse people in the name of Jesus?).

How do you know what he knows? Also if that is true, then the bible is a terrible source, because by your own admission large parts of it could just be terrible misuses of his intended message.

Imagine if there was some set of instructions. For one, it would have to be a extraordinarily long (I think that narrative and story can describe truths that would take incredibly long description, just look at what has come out of one of our novels (Hamlet, War and Peace, etc).

So no, stories and narrative are better. As I said earlier, even Christ used those, he didn't teach by giving a huge list of commands/instructions/rules.

Clearly not, considering that narrative and stories from the bible have just let to a mass schisming of christianity and a million different interpretations of what its supposed to mean.

The only way that God could give us (human-)interpretation free laws is to beam them right into our heard with no choice in the matter. Then we are effectively robots and not conscious beings.

The only way? You seem to have little faith in your creators abilities. Then again if there are indeed right and wrong ways to live your life, you're already a robot, just one that can face eternal damnation if you go against your programming.

Also, your posts consistently demonstrate that you have a feeble comprehension of not just Christianity but Religion in general. I recommend that you actually study some some time. Maybe start with Hinduism (real Hinduism and not some Humanist interpretation there of) or Shintoism instead of Christianity since you are obviously biased there.

That's funny, because you sound like a brainwashed fundementalist who can't tell the difference between logic and fantasy.

[kentonio]

But there are also traditions, or the Church, which provide the required context to understand what the people were saying. We can't go back in time and watch Jesus or see people's response to Him. So we have to go back to His disciples, and their disciples and so on and look. What did they understand from their interactions with Christ? This understanding is then passed down through the Church (or as tradition). It was already happening before 70 AD as Christ had died in approximately 33AD. Paul repeatedly said in the letters "this is how we interpret Christ, who He was, His actions and what He said". There were other interpretations, but they are not (Paulian) Christianity.

Once more, this is common for all religions (or even books of philosophy or stories or history). I really think you need to study some, even if you are certain in your atheism. It might be that you should just study some philosophy or history and not even start with non-Western religions.

Ah yes, there has never been a better way to pass on information than via Chinese Whispers.

[Giancarlo]

Bush came in with 5 trillion on the books with the Clinton administration and left with 10. Current debt is 19.5. 9 trillion >> 5 trillion. O will likely outspend every prior president, combined.



Unfortunately the actual facts don't support this contention.

Again Bush kept a lot of discretionary spending off the books and his tax cuts had a lasting impact.

You have no real facts and you are lying once again.

[Giancarlo]

My argument is that privatization would improve the education that schools provide. I realize it is a controversial position. I went to a public school myself. Despite Gian's claim. 100 percent of my education is from public schools.

Your argument is moronic. Privatization would have a negative impact. Deeply negative. The nations with the top performing education systems have a very direct approach from the central government. Privatization is stupid, much like your paranoid delusions about the debt and military.

[Giancarlo]

Cutting the 3% isn't going to fix anything.

The only real fix is major cuts across the board and higher taxes/increased revenue.

And yes, the voters will still want it all anyway.

Ben doesn't understand the budget. He doesn't quite understand the military budget is actually higher than it appears. A lot of spending is kept off the books and a lot of it is spent on long term projects we don't need.

But somehow the idiot tries to say we need to have l those big projects to collect taxes. I don't recall the military having to collect taxes. We have a different agency for that people like Ben hate.

[Giancarlo]

Cuts at this point are pretty much inevitable.

In 1988, debt to the treasury was 214 billion. In 2011 it hit the all time high of 454 billion. That's about 30 percent of revenue.

So, if you're earning 50k, that would be the equivalent of paying about 15k in interest payments, alone. That's a hard ratio.

We don't need to cut anything, asides from long term defense spending. What we also need to do is roll back these idiotic taxcuts for the rich. Raise tax rates to 1950s levels. You probably won't like that one bit. For a guy so sucked up in the past, you would be having a total fit if you saw the tax rates on the rich during that time.

[Jon Miller]

How do you know what he knows? Also if that is true, then the bible is a terrible source, because by your own admission large parts of it could just be terrible misuses of his intended message.

It is not a terrible source. It is an excellent source. It is really like you have never read the Bible, never read the words of Jesus, never looked into Doctrine or Theology. Christ pointed out that it was being misused, and gave both proper direction and restatements.

But this is true of everything, so all you are really arguing for here is Solipsism which is an entirely ridiculous philosophy as a way of life.

Clearly not, considering that narrative and stories from the bible have just let to a mass schisming of christianity and a million different interpretations of what its supposed to mean.

Those are all relatively small compared to all possible beliefs/etc. The fact that people like to schism is not the fault of Christianity nor the way it was founded (see Marxism, Feminism, etc, etc, etc).

The only way? You seem to have little faith in your creators abilities. Then again if there are indeed right and wrong ways to live your life, you're already a robot, just one that can face eternal damnation if you go against your programming.

I either have choice or I don't. If I do have choice, then obviously I will end up with different interpretations of events/stories/words/etc than others. In fact, that is true even if I don't have choice, unless I was some mass produced automation.

That's funny, because you sound like a brainwashed fundementalist who can't tell the difference between logic and fantasy.

I find it sad and not funny that the ignorant calling those educated about the world brained washed and unable to tell the difference between logic and fantasy.

I, at least, have studied in depth multiple religions and belief systems (some not even western). You don't even have basic knowledge about the key western belief systems, as you display continually.

JM

[Giancarlo]

This all leads to a question... the bible is relevant to me how and why should I care?

JM, it is one thing to study and another thing to understand what you are studying. You seem to have went into whatever you were studying with a deeply Christian bias and mindset.

I am someone who studied other societies and cultures throughout my education. Yes, I am a poli sci undergrad and graduate alumni. Different belief systems were covered. You have a rudimentary and distorted view because of your biases, JM. This is based on what you have written. A truly educated person would not have preconceived biases and be dismissive of other valid points.

The bible has indeed been interpreted in many different ways. This has occurred to such a degree that it is impossible to take anything you or any other Christian says seriously. Different Christian sects have their own interpretation. In the end, it ends up being one big jumbled mess.

[kentonio]

It is not a terrible source. It is an excellent source. It is really like you have never read the Bible, never read the words of Jesus, never looked into Doctrine or Theology. Christ pointed out that it was being misused, and gave both proper direction and restatements.

Gee, yes Jon I must never have read the bible or looked into Christianity in any way. Obviously because I disagree with you, I must have no understanding or experience with any of it.

But this is true of everything, so all you are really arguing for here is Solipsism which is an entirely ridiculous philosophy as a way of life.

I'm not a solipsist, but as a philosophy it makes considerably more sense than omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator dieties do.

Those are all relatively small compared to all possible beliefs/etc. The fact that people like to schism is not the fault of Christianity nor the way it was founded (see Marxism, Feminism, etc, etc, etc).

I don't recall either Marxism or Feminism claiming to represent complete eternal truth, or indeed to be merely the pawns of a creator figure with the power to do whatever he pleased. That's the thing you guys love to completely ignore in these discussions, you talk about the limitations of how a message could be spread or of how limited humans are, while simultaneously claiming to believe in a creator who made everything to his own design.

I either have choice or I don't. If I do have choice, then obviously I will end up with different interpretations of events/stories/words/etc than others. In fact, that is true even if I don't have choice, unless I was some mass produced automation.

It's a bull**** choice. You can do one set of things and be rewarded or another set of things and be punished. Great choice there.

I find it sad and not funny that the ignorant calling those educated about the world brained washed and unable to tell the difference between logic and fantasy.

I find it occasionally funny yet mostly just sad that people deluded into illogical belief systems have the temerity to call others ignorant. There isn't a single thing I can think of in my personal belief system that could not change if confronted with adequate evidence/material to support that change. You're a goddamn scientist, yet you have some things you hold as above questioning. I find that deeply depressing personally.

I, at least, have studied in depth multiple religions and belief systems (some not even western). You don't even have basic knowledge about the key western belief systems, as you display continually.

I spent years studying different belief systems you arrogant ****, and the conclusion I came to was that they all call upon the same psychological needs and weaknesses in humans to derive their appeal. One of those weaknesses they feed on so well is the human desire to feel a perceived sense of superiority over others, which is clearly one way in which religion seems to have suited you.

Incidentally bragging about what you've studied doesn't sound very big or clever when the conclusions you've apparently drawn from that study are inconsistent and rely on nothing more than wishing something was true.

[Jon Miller]

I am someone who studied other societies and cultures throughout my education. Yes, I am a poli sci undergrad and graduate alumni. Different belief systems were covered. You have a rudimentary and distorted view because of your biases, JM.

Not according to the various Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians and Buddhists that I know and have engaged in indepth religious conversations with. And the same for the atheists and agnostics who I know who have spent even a little bit of time learning and studying about what different religious groups believe (which is a fair number of them, in fact the ones that don't have no interest in talking about religion or are Randians).

And your classes from a Western university in PoliSci seem to have not given you a very good starting point to discuss religion with people who have different beliefs than yours (western atheism). Of course, that likely was not their purpose so there is no reason for you to feel upset.

JM

[Giancarlo]

My god has a bigger dick than your god. - George Carlin

That is all it comes down to.

[giblets]

It's kind of amusing that you want to turn the clock back to the 19th century, given that back then a deaf kid would have been treated basically as a ******, and perhaps if the people were particularly kind have been trusted with sweeping up animal **** or some other work no-one else wanted to do. You certainly wouldn't have seen the inside of a school at any point (although I'm not sure we would really be able to tell the difference).

So we wouldn't have people starting 100 page arguments with him?

[kentonio]

Not according to the various Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians and Buddhists that I know and have engaged in indepth religious conversations with. And the same for the atheists and agnostics who I know who have spent even a little bit of time learning and studying about what different religious groups believe (which is a fair number of them, in fact the ones that don't have no interest in talking about religion or are Randians).

And your classes from a Western university in PoliSci seem to have not given you a very good starting point to discuss religion with people who have different beliefs than yours (western atheism). Of course, that likely was not their purpose so there is no reason for you to feel upset.

JM

In other words, you're happy to talk about religion just as long as its on terms that you personally feel comfortable with and which fit into your pre-existing conclusions. You'll talk to atheists, but you expect them to debate fine points of theology, not just question the entire structure on which your belief system stands.

Yep, pretty typical.

[kentonio]

So we wouldn't have people starting 100 page arguments with him?

TURN BACK THAT DAMN CLOCK ALREADY!!!! :desire: