Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Bereta_Eder]

Can a 13 year old make a lifelong decision?

No.
That's why he can't vote, drink etc

He can't have a beer but he's in a position to decide what religion he's going to be for the rest of his life
ridicoulous

[Bereta_Eder]

Also the sex abuse scandals won't go away because the problem in the catholic church is structural.

You can't possibly ask for abstinence from low clergy

catholicism in europe is in dire decline

france? couldn't be more secular. it's THE secular country
spain? amongst the very first to adopt gay marriages etc etc, really a pioneer
italy? really? the italians? they're basically the same with us. sure church/religion (and we do what we want but we're good people and we'll go to heaven)

who else? poland? semicrazed unfortunately

[Bereta_Eder]

Religion is not some shirt you decide you're going to wear another because it matches your shoes.

You grow up in a particular culture that is heavily influenced by religion.

I keep haring in this thread about menonites, anglicans lutherans and they didn't like the way jesus was tiying up his sandal so they made a new "religion"

so useless so alien

I can understand it was for political reasons initially but after a while all this engrossement with religion and sects and **** it's like the occupation of asylum tenants


Plus every country that managed to do something had to burry religion first.

USSR, from an agricultural society to the stars in a mere 50 years? bury religion
france, the cradle of what nearly everyone follows today in term of secularism? bury religion
even the US which is of course freakishly backward with all its "in god we trust" bull****, in reality it buried religion

[kentonio]

france? couldn't be more secular. it's THE secular country

Not really true, it turns out a lot of people here are still quietly Catholic. If you want a really secular country try the UK, you could hunt for a long time to find a Christian there.

[Bereta_Eder]

I admit the UK seems to be more firlmy based on logic, which peculiarly enough leaves a wider space for different cultures/religious practices. but it's something different. another model. has a lot of pluses

[Ben Kenobi]

Religion is not some shirt you decide you're going to wear another because it matches your shoes.

I didn't choose Catholicism because it 'matches my shoes'. It is very much apart from my life growing up.

You grow up in a particular culture that is heavily influenced by religion.

That's actually not true. I went to a public school. My parents never practiced. Our 'culture' if we have one is nominal Anglican. I was away from the Church and came to Christ.

USSR, from an agricultural society to the stars in a mere 50 years? bury religion
france, the cradle of what nearly everyone follows today in term of secularism? bury religion
even the US which is of course freakishly backward with all its "in god we trust" bull****, in reality it buried religion

France was a world power under Louis XVI.

Russia too, was a world power prior to the Communist revolution.

The US, again just the opposite.

It would seem to me that there's no such pattern - if anything that the pattern would be the opposite. Spain was a world power too.

Also the sex abuse scandals won't go away because the problem in the catholic church is structural.

Abuse rates being low in the 50s and low again in the 90s suggests that it wasn't a structural problem at all - but rather a problem stemming from the 60s.

You can't possibly ask for abstinence from low clergy

Then why have the abuse rates dropped back down?

catholicism in europe is in dire decline

It's actually grown in the UK, and it's higher in Poland and in eastern Europe than it's been in a long time. It's growing in the Scandinavian countries too, and the Dutch church is growing too. Germany could be majority catholic soon as well.

In the US and in Canada - the trend has been a massive fall-off in Protestants, whereas the Catholic church has held steady.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are still hundreds of cases happening to this day.

Per year, there are about 50 or so in the US.

Church should have paid something more like 5 billion to even bring some justice back. $100k to each victim? For what? They have to endure a lifetime of pain.

Do you believe that restitution would ever change things in your mind? If no - I don't see much point to further restitution. The Catholic church has cleaned up it's act.

And you're telling them they cannot ever stop being Catholic.

Faith is very precious - why would their relationship with God be hampered by their sufferings? That would be a double injury. They are Catholic, and that cannot be taken away from them by the sins of someone else.

There is a reason I left the church and Catholicism for good. Never again. I cannot be part of something that is so insidious and corrupt.

You cannot leave something you were not a part of. You are Catholic and will always be Catholic. That is your right to leave - but if you choose to return at some point in the future - the Catholic church will be there.

[Ben Kenobi]

but the leaders of the church KNEW they were guilty, and did nothing except provide them with more opportunities to rape even more children while strong arming the victims into silence, and doing nothing for them.

That pretty much is exactly what Rembert Weakland did for 18 years after the scandal broke.

I would expect your "innocent until proven guilty" comment if you were defending mobsters... not the spiritual leaders of the community. Shame on them

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and deserves the full protection of the law and substantive due process. If has nothing to do with 'guilt' or 'innocence'. A fair trial is crucial to see that justice will eventually be done. It bothers me that Weakland has received essentially no punishment for his involvement. The only justice will be in seeing his name forever attached to the men that he enabled.

[Bereta_Eder]

actually the reason why we have open heart sergurcy and know what the moon surface looks like is because religion bit the dust

discovering america and bringing in slaves is not my idea of a succesful country

[Ming]

That pretty much is exactly what Rembert Weakland did for 18 years after the scandal broke.

You keep making it sound like he was the only one... he wasn't. He was just one of many spread around the globe. This wasn't some isolated incident.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and deserves the full protection of the law and substantive due process. If has nothing to do with 'guilt' or 'innocence'. A fair trial is crucial to see that justice will eventually be done. It bothers me that Weakland has received essentially no punishment for his involvement. The only justice will be in seeing his name forever attached to the men that he enabled.

Legal is legal... but what about ethical and spiritual... I would expect better from the Catholic Church. It's hard to consider them moral and ethical when as an institution, they failed their flock. They not only turned their backs on the victims, they helped the rapists rape even more children. They knew they were guilty, and they didn't turn them over to the police for justice... they turned them loose on even more children.

[Ben Kenobi]

actually the reason why we have open heart sergurcy and know what the moon surface looks like is because religion bit the dust

Plenty of scientists were religious too. That there's a perceived dichotomy is a very recent phenomenon - that doesn't date to the early part of the century.

[Bereta_Eder]

I didn't choose Catholicism because it 'matches my shoes'. It is very much apart from my life growing up.

Of course it isn't.
You're like those baptist loonies
and you change religions more often than a homeless changes shirts


you're compromised and broken sorry

but hope dies last

[Ben Kenobi]

You keep making it sound like he was the only one... he wasn't. He was just one of many spread around the globe. This wasn't some isolated incident.

Never said it was - he's a bishop, and there were other bishops too. They are the real source of the problem - because the serial abusers would not have stayed abusing if the bishops were not covering for them.

Legal is legal... but what about ethical and spiritual... I would expect better from the Catholic Church.

Whether a particular priest is innocent or guilty plays a significant role in how the Church should treat them. There has to be a fair process to uncover the truth, good or bad. Just because there is a small minority (1 percent or so), of all priests involved, doesn't meant that we should convict innocent priests too.

It's hard to consider them moral and ethical when as an institution, they failed their flock.

Yes, it's a significant problem - however I don't see it as an institutional problem in the sense that the entire Catholic church was involved. I see it more as certain bishops choosing to turn a blind eye. Remove the bishops and the underlying festering sore gets exposed.

That *HAS* happened. If the abuse levels remained at the heights of the 80s, I would agree with you. But - they have not. They have come down significantly.

[Ben Kenobi]

and you change religions more often than a homeless changes shirts

Wouldn't a homeless person have just the one shirt?

[Ming]

Great response... "they have come down"... WOW!

I find it so hypocritical of you when you want to blast away all of PP when only one conviction has occurred, but you deny the problems with Catholic Church after many, many convictions and Millions of dollars have occurred. YES, IT WAS AN INSTITUTIONAL PROBLEM. I'm not saying everybody was in on it... but the Institution failed it's members.
THAT'S A FACT!