Switzerthreadi no.2: is UBI the 1st step towards a startrekkish world or just nonsense?

[Ben Kenobi]

the swiss governments evil scheme to weaken the franc.

Right. As if it's not been a serious question...

[BlackCat]

Yes, and ?

[pchang]

77% against
23% for

Measure does not pass

[Ben Kenobi]

Swiss, still the smartest European nation.

[Elok]

What, did they deny you a visa?

[Ben Kenobi]

There's a reason I have the 'european' qualifier.

[BeBMan]

What, did they deny you a visa?

If Kid had posted what Ben did, I'd guess it's because they didn't let women vote until the 1970ies (regionally even later in some areas).

[Sir Og]

I like an UBI that is fully financed. The money for UBI should be a percentage of collected taxes(state budget) which is divided equally to all people of the country without any tests for eligibility. (zero overhead, no possibility of gaming the system, the fairest possible redistribution)
All other welfare should be removed. People can help privately to those who they feel need additional help.

In the real world I don't see this happening any time soon. Everybody would feel unhappy by such a system although it is fair and efficient. Politically there is no way for this to work when everybody has a sens of "loss" and is against such a system.


I think UBI might become more realistic political proposition when the first computers capable of 100% replacing current highly educated professionals come up. At that point a majority of people might realize that it's all luck after all and a scheme that efficiently redistributes luck is a good idea.

[Dry]

Strange- no swiss party supports the proposal.

No political party in the world will ever support that. If it is UNCONDITIONAL, you strip them from their power.
As it is today, political parties have the power to decide who will benefit from social help, who will not. Vote for me, do as I tell, lick my boot and you get the money.

http://www.basicincome2016.org/blog/...l-basic-income

Any social funds, extra payments, stipends, pensions and such subsidies can be replaced by the basic income as long as they do not exceed it. In the United States, there are 150 different programs of social balance that could be vastly relieved by the distribution of an unconditional basic income. This unconditional transaction could replace the “social welfare state“ and could mean significant reductions of expenses for the authorities. Currently, all social transfers are tied to concrete conditions that have to be proven and investigated bureaucratically at very high cost.

[Dauphin]

I like an UBI that is fully financed. The money for UBI should be a percentage of collected taxes(state budget) which is divided equally to all people of the country without any tests for eligibility. (zero overhead, no possibility of gaming the system, the fairest possible redistribution).

You can game the system. There are (albeit not widespread) abuses in the UK where EU nationals turn up for as little as one day, and get a National Insurance number, and then leave the country. They then fraudulently claim unemployment and other benefits despite not living in the country.

I could imagine lots of people looking to abuse the system of free money no questions asked.

So, I think there needs to be a one time nationality test which gives you permanent rights (it can auto-enrolled based on current passport or driver's licence databases), and an annual residence test for non-nationals (maybe checked against tax records - or utility or other output tax payment records which in countries like Portugal are often linked to tax records)

[kentonio]

You can game the system. There are (albeit not widespread) abuses in the UK where EU nationals turn up for as little as one day, and get a National Insurance number, and then leave the country. They then fraudulently claim unemployment and other benefits despite not living in the country.

Do we have any links to this actually happening that don't involve the Daily Mail?

[Kropotkin]

I have not read up on the requirements for eligibility in the solution - and as it did not pass the referendum I suppose it is of little importance - but I assume citizenship, possibly in combination with residence, would be a minimum. There is a sort of tradition in modern Swiss labour market and social politics to give foreigners a little less of everything. I can not envisage that there would be any difference in this case. It would also solve the problem of finding employees for some jobs that people with the right to UBI would shun. It is already the Swiss model, the Qatar of Europe, after all.

[rah]

Probably the most common game would be not reporting that dad died and still collect the check. This is quite common for Social Security fraud in the US.

Never mind that smell in the basement.

[Kropotkin]

As far as I know this has apparently part of the explanation for the longevity of the Japanese. Implementing UBI without to much spillage rests by necessity on the existence of an efficient public bureaucracy and civil registry. One could argue that Switzerland is ahead of the US in this regard.

Regarding the smell from the basement, the same also applies to plumping and sewage.

[Dauphin]

Do we have any links to this actually happening that don't involve the Daily Mail?

Judges from Snaresbrook and Croydon Crown Courts seem reliable enough to me.