EU Referendum - La Deuxième Partie

[C0ckney]

the campaign has continued with ever more dire warnings about how, on the one hand, brexit will cause war, pestilence and famine, and on the other, how remain will cause the entire population of turkey to set up home in south east england. the polls put remain somewhat in front, and it seems that the remain campaign has done best as its position has improved considerably since april. there are still many undecided voters, however. curiously, telephone polling seems to favour remain, whereas online polling tends to favour leave.

interestingly, the fractures within the tory party are becoming ever more apparent, and unless remain wins convincingly, cameron may well face a leadership challenge very soon after the vote.

two tory MPs called for his resignation today.

[Ben Kenobi]

Good, I hope leave wins and the Tories get shattered over the brass choosing to stay. The Pound has saved Britain.

[Dauphin]

Listening to Boris and Iain or Duncan Smith talk about David being too posh to care about migrants would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[C0ckney]

yes, although a bunch of posh boys accusing each other of being too posh to understand the working classes is a central part of british politics. it also sounds rather hollow when one considers that more non-EU migrants than EU migrants came to the UK last year.

[Dauphin]

It's a known fact that facts are dangerous to both campaigns, and should be avoided at all costs.

[BeBMan]

Halt ze German advance!

[Dauphin]

Halt ze German advance!

[C0ckney]

both sides have certainly made liberal use of world war 2 (and other war) references during the campaign. i sometimes wonder if we need another war in europe to get people to shut up about the last one.

[Dauphin]

both sides have certainly made liberal use of world war 2 (and other war) references during the campaign. i sometimes wonder if we need another war in europe to get people to shut up about the last one.

Yes, because the Daily Mail never invokes Waterloo, Agincourt or the Armada....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111742/MAX-HASTINGS-Briton-savour-blood-soaked-victory-France-wants-pretend-never-happened.html

WATERLOO: Why every Briton should savour this blood-soaked victory that France wants to pretend never happened, writes MAX HASTINGS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3392077/LORD-TEBBIT-ve-seen-Hitler-Armada-let-s-EU.html

LORD TEBBIT: We've seen off Hitler and the Armada. So let's see off EU!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3267917/Massacre-Les-Snobs-600th-anniversary-Agincourt-snooty-French-nobles-soft-peasants-handed-finest-hour.html

Massacre of Les Snobs: On the 600th anniversary of Agincourt, how snooty French nobles too posh for our peasants handed us our finest hour

[BeBMan]

both sides have certainly made liberal use of world war 2 (and other war) references during the campaign. i sometimes wonder if we need another war in europe to get people to shut up about the last one.

Unrelated to that, but the talk about "German domination" of the EU is always kinda amusing.

There might be *some* point in economic matters, because there Germany has a lot of weight to throw (esp. if others - France - don't do so well), but in many other fields there's not much to it. Just take the refugee crisis - Austria and a couple of others just did largely ignore what Merkel wanted and there was nothing she could do about it.

(It even helped her to save face, she can still be all about "open borders" but otoh certainly profits from the numbers of refugees going down, at least for now)

[C0ckney]

Yes, because the Daily Mail never invokes Waterloo, Agincourt or the Armada....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111742/MAX-HASTINGS-Briton-savour-blood-soaked-victory-France-wants-pretend-never-happened.html

WATERLOO: Why every Briton should savour this blood-soaked victory that France wants to pretend never happened, writes MAX HASTINGS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3392077/LORD-TEBBIT-ve-seen-Hitler-Armada-let-s-EU.html

LORD TEBBIT: We've seen off Hitler and the Armada. So let's see off EU!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3267917/Massacre-Les-Snobs-600th-anniversary-Agincourt-snooty-French-nobles-soft-peasants-handed-finest-hour.html

Massacre of Les Snobs: On the 600th anniversary of Agincourt, how snooty French nobles too posh for our peasants handed us our finest hour

yes, that's a fair point.

Unrelated to that, but the talk about "German domination" of the EU is always kinda amusing.

There might be *some* point in economic matters, because there Germany has a lot of weight to throw (esp. if others - France - don't do so well), but in many other fields there's not much to it. Just take the refugee crisis - Austria and a couple of others just did largely ignore what Merkel wanted and there was nothing she could do about it.

(It even helped her to save face, she can still be all about "open borders" but otoh certainly profits from the numbers of refugees going down, at least for now)

from a UK perspective, it's a combination of factors. germany is the largest economy, the most populous state, and thus certainly wields plenty of power. germany is also a convenient 'enemy' to bring up (2 world wars and 1 world cup! ). and then there's the whole refugee crisis, which many seek to blame on merkel. of course such an analysis ignores the various political issues on which the UK and germany agree and indeed have been working on together for many years; but the level of public debate on europe doesn't allow for a nuanced picture.

[Dauphin]

U.K. GDP and population has a strong chance of surpassing Germany's within 20 years. The U.K. could assume the 'dominant' position - France's, and to the extent it's even relevant Italy's, power will decline further. However, even if the U.K. were equally 'dominant' there would be a view that it was not. The national psyche works on a basis that Europe can't be tamed, only defeated and divided. The rest of the world is the land of opportunity.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

UK can save EU by exiting, or even better - save Europe again.

It is such a sham of a project that there can be no "internal" repair, it is beyond repair and sooner it breaks up, less painful will it be.

The chance to save it was there from 2007 to 2012, all they managed is ESM... after that it (EU) was pretty much done - in my view off course, the next decade will show whether this is true, and if Europe can do better, but I am highly sceptical at this stage.

[Cort Haus]

UK can save EU by exiting, or even better - save Europe again.

It is such a sham of a project that there can be no "internal" repair, it is beyond repair and sooner it breaks up, less painful will it be.

The chance to save it was there from 2007 to 2012, all they managed is ESM... after that it (EU) was pretty much done - in my view off course, the next decade will show whether this is true, and if Europe can do better, but I am highly sceptical at this stage.

The complete lack of democratic accountability of the executive, the contempt for ordinary people who have the wrong opinions, the rerunning of polls until they get the result they want - this organisation has as much chance of being reformed as FIFA. Tear it down and start again.

It's so often assumed that all opposition to the EU in Britain is automatically down to negative factors like xenophobia and parochialism, rather than being based on a strong democratic impulse. Opposing the EU isn't the same as being anti-Europe, it is opposing an elitist, arrogant and unelected ruling class. There can be a better Europe, but not under this model.

[Fake Boris]

The complete lack of democratic accountability of the executive, the contempt for ordinary people who have the wrong opinions, the rerunning of polls until they get the result they want - this organisation has as much chance of being reformed as FIFA. Tear it down and start again.

It's so often assumed that all opposition to the EU in Britain is automatically down to negative factors like xenophobia and parochialism, rather than being based on a strong democratic impulse. Opposing the EU isn't the same as being anti-Europe, it is opposing an elitist, arrogant and unelected ruling class. There can be a better Europe, but not under this model.

QFT