Said NO to top management

[Pekka]

Had to.

Discovered a huge problem at my work place, technical issue, that will bring stuff down during the summer. THe thing is, I am tired. I've been working without vacation or days off for a year now. Working hard. Overtime, too. Tasks that are demanding and sort of... speciality cases.

Wanted me to stay and I said No. I won't get into trouble for it, nor are they wise enough to reward for a good job. Reckon life is short, so why spend it in a place where logic does not prevail. Could save them a lot more money in licensing costs as well, but I dunno. What do you guys think? My loyalty is up to a point where I just do my job soon, and never break the NDA. But that's about it. I just say no, no and no. Maybe I should just stay home and see what happens.

edit:

Oh! Had a question, have you ever said NO to top management and what happened? Do you think it is the way to go? By top management I mean like the boards of directors who can fire you, and fire people on the regular. Bosses of the bosses of your boss. One down from the actual head of the company. One down from Steve Jobs if he was alive.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

This is the correct course of action with a few caveats:

* you are absolutely sure you are right and you have a solution they are ignoring
* you are financially independent and/or have another job waiting in the wings
* people that you care about will not get harmed by your action (ie, you could have your co-workers, boss fired too with this move in some companies)

On the last point, technically the company will do what it does, and protecting your team/coworkers who may not be as resourceful as you are is still more important on my list than a company which does not listen and is a matter of time when they shoot themselves in the foot again (which they will undoubtebly do this time, and again, and again, and again) and survive.

Even if the company makes a major mistake, survives, the people (you care about, assuming there are any) will still more likely than not have their jobs, and in the end the world keeps on spinning.

If there are no aftershocks like that, and you can move on relatively easily - sure - the top brass need to be told what's going on from time to time, and it may even produce good results on occasion, even though most faultlines are systemic, ie they already know about major issues and decide to ignore them/let them run their course due to specific political reasons/their own inability to prevent them without risking their own prospects too much.

[loinburger]

I've said no for ethical reasons (though this hasn't cropped up since I left the DOD), but never for technical reasons - there are often (more or less) sound non-technical reasons for implementing something the "wrong" way, e.g. the customer is paying us a lot of money to implement something sub-optimally. Also, it pains me to admit this, but there have been times that I thought that a design was technically unsound only to be proven wrong.

When working for the DOD it was infrequently my job to review contract proposals, and on a few occasions my technical director told me to give a good review to his friend's company's proposal, and I said "no" because **** him. (Branch chief = the guy who signs my paycheck, technical director = the guy who reviews my research; in practice the technical director had zero authority over me because I didn't need any funding for my research that I couldn't get through other channels, plus my research was unclassified so I could just disseminate it through public conferences/journals)

[Lorizael]

I've never worked a job where I interacted with top management, except those jobs where top management was also middle management and lower management. I have almost been asked to do unethical things before, but for various reasons it never worked out that I was faced with the conundrum. My guess is I would have just gone along with it, because I'm an amoral sheep and I've never had a job of consequence. (Except possibly the time I worked as a tech writer for the FAA's Flight Standards Service, where I was partially responsible for producing aviation safety notices.)

[loinburger]

It's surprisingly easy to do the right thing when the person who wants you to do the wrong thing is a douchebag

[Lorizael]

I've definitely worked for a lot of douchebags, but I've also been poor a lot.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

I more or less said no to the owner when I was a print reporter - some old man had shot his grandson to death by accident in the middle of the night, and I wasn't about to pile on and add to his pain calling and asking questions. It was a crap paper that never covered real news -section B was a lame huge running society column in effect, and longer than section A, no other sections- and the owner/editor thought he was a ship captain, so I never knew if his suggestions were orders or just suggestions, and this was one of those times.

ASSUMING it was all an accident - I just don't care about any job that much. I'd turn down millionaire porn-star auditioner before I'd knowingly contribute to that poor old man's tragedy in any way. -Probably why I'm not a reporter anymore.

[ricketyclik]

I made the mistake of staying several years in a job I didn't like - the golden handcuffs - and grew more and more bitter and obstructionist. In retrospect, there were better ways to get out, but get out is what I did, and should have done much sooner.

[Elok]

I'd like to say no to top management, but my wife insists on buying bras anyway.

[ricketyclik]

I forgot to mention - yes I've said no, to the CEO no less. Shows brass, and resulted in me being promoted very quickly, albeit into an unsuitable position.

[Pekka]

Getting mixed opinions. I'll be more specific:

It is basic infrastructure thing, that has not been taken cared of for years. Everyone sort of knows it, but no one does anything to remedy the situation.

I took a huge personal risk to hire trusted friends to make a presentation to illustrate the problem, and a plan for a way forward (how to fix it). I had complained about it for 2 years, resulting into nothing. THe thing is pre-condition for many other things, yet management ignores it. It is not sexy work, but it needs to be done.

Finally, I asked my friends oversees to come over, make EXPENSIVE powerpoints so they would realize we are already invested in this, and already "correcting the issues". The presentation was not BS or FUD. The issue is real.

The thing is, I need it to do my job. And generally, it impacts everyone else as well. So it is, what we could call a group wide service (end-to-end). Like email would be. For cost bearing and ownership reasons. Basic infrastucture stuff. It was all bonkers and I spent nights and weekends on mapping things just to make a solid case of saving quite a lot of money if we do it the right way. It meant we had to kill few products that were bought with huge money and so emotional and egotistical investments, i.e. sunk cost bias had to be fought.

So now that we are on the right path, they want me to not sleep, drink water or anything but keep doing it. Now I am tired of it, it was like a marathon before the marathon. So yes, if they do it wrong, it will not succeed. And now it is slowly slipping to teh wrong direction. If I stay and don't do vacations, I will burn out, and get nothing out of it. They are not paying me for this or rewarding in any single way, except "don't leave". Not into job security.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh! Had a question, have you ever said NO to top management and what happened? Do you think it is the way to go? By top management I mean like the boards of directors who can fire you, and fire people on the regular. Bosses of the bosses of your boss. One down from the actual head of the company. One down from Steve Jobs if he was alive.

Couple times, twice where I teach, but I don't think I really phrased it that way. "Ie, this is rubbish, let me try something else" it was more like, "I have this idea I'd like to implement if the board is go for it", and then quietly tossed some of their peculiar hobby horses. If anybody said anything I never heard about it. Second time was objection over a particular lesson plan. Brass asked to change it I stood by it saying that the parents wanted it and ultimately it was kept.

Once with my other employer over a technical solution. "Do this for me". "X says that it would compromise Y". He had forgotten about Y, and thanked me. Eventually was kicked upstairs, but that had more to do with sticking with the boss over a challenging (but correct) decision, that got him fired by the big boss. He went independent, and I went along with the ride.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, Pekka, that's the price for being a visionary. It seems to me your response is being tinged by the pressures you're having outside. I would not give up on seeing your vision through. How much longer do you have before this all gets put together?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Pekka, if it was, say, a forum thing where you're there because you want to be there and want the place to run better, I'd be all egging you on -fiercely- to jump all over it - this sounds like a horse of a different color, though. You gotta take care of Pekka -and there's kid's at home still?- before anyone else. Absolutely right to confine any efforts to normal work.

[rah]

They are not paying me for this or rewarding in any single way, except "don't leave".

Sounds like leverage to me. Use it or lose it. Of course you must be Ok if they call your bluff. Their loss.

I've had disagreements with top management. I no longer work at any of those places. Which basically sums things up.
You must be prepared to pay the price for playing. In one place it was always about rewarding staff (their lack of). That one didn't bother me. At least they had to pay me a big chunk of change to make me go away quietly. Other times it was over operational issues. That one bothered me since I was young (and sure I was right as all youngsters do) Their lose, but I didn't gain anything and my staff paid the bigger price. Those are the ones that hurt. (unless you're a cold bastard) Always consider all the consequences.