So how long will Ben last this time?

[Ben Kenobi]

Historical expert Ben is of course correct, there were absolutely no instances of incestuous relationships in European monarchies! Well except for Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg who married Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha who just happened to be her uncle, or Philipp II who married Anna of Austria who was his neice, as did Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich and Philip IV.

I'd list more of these these uncle/neice & nephew/aunt marraiges but they happened so often it would quickly get boring.

My database has 30k total marriages, which would give you 3 of 30k. I never said there were none, only that it was unusual. Was there some inbreeding? Yes. Was James VII/II inbred? No.

[Aeson]

Technically not sexist then, because they didn't protect men's rights either. Only property owners could vote.

As demonstrated by the 14th and 19th Amendments, the US Constitution is the ultimate authority on voting rights. In periods that it has delegated that authority to the states it still held responsibility for how that delegated authority could be used, and for correcting how it was used. Until it corrected how it was used with the 19th Amendment, the US Constitution was complicit in women being denied voting rights based on their gender.

Delegating authority does not absolve responsibility.

[Aeson]

My database has 30k total marriages, which would give you 3 of 30k. I never said there were none, only that it was unusual. Was there some inbreeding? Yes. Was James VII/II inbred? No.

woosh!

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, I believe the context was the Stuart family of England, no?

[Ben Kenobi]

And Kid has a point, they didn't permit universal male suffrage either.

[kentonio]

I never said there were none, only that it was unusual.

....

There are many instances of royal incestuous relationships throughout history.

Not in Europe.

There were not 3 examples, there were hundreds. As I said I simply couldn't be bothered to keep listing them. The major royal families of Europe are incredibly inbred and always were, because they followed the practice of marrying into other royal or noble lines, and that gives you a very limited genetic pool to choose from. There's a reason why the Spanish Habsburg line ended with the infertile and mentally and physically disabled Charles II.

No-one gives a fuck about James II, stop building up strawmen you can knock down to try and make yourself feel smart.

[Aeson]

Well, I believe the context was the Stuart family of England, no?

No. That was you cherry picking examples in response to a generalized statement about hereditary rule.

[Aeson]

And Kid has a point, they didn't permit universal male suffrage either.

The simple reality is that women could not vote for over a century because they were women.

Men who weren't allowed to vote were not disallowed because of their gender.

[Ben Kenobi]

No. That was you cherry picking examples in response to a generalized statement about hereditary rule.

Uh, given the context of the American revolution and the Glorious Revolution, James VI/I is the relevant example.

And your general statement is wrong. Are you seriously asserting that the majority of European nobility in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries was inbred?

[Ben Kenobi]

The simple reality is that women could not vote for over a century because they were women.

For nearly a century, neither could men. In fact, the time before universal male suffrage, was longer than the time between universal male suffrage and the introduction of female suffrage.

Men who weren't allowed to vote were not disallowed because of their gender.

The franchise at that point wasn't based on your sex.

[Ben Kenobi]

There were not 3 examples, there were hundreds.

And there are over 30 thousand names in my database. If we accept your bold assertion as 200 marriages that is less than a percent of the total.

So that would mean that 99+ percent of the European nobility was not inbred.

The major royal families of Europe are incredibly inbred and always were

The actual data doesn't back up your claim.

, because they followed the practice of marrying into other royal or noble lines, and that gives you a very limited genetic pool to choose from.

As I already stated, the British line was a combination of Scottish noble lines, English Plantagenets and a little bit of Dutch and French. Of the 16 lines, 15 were distinct at the time of James VI, with the only duplication being the one Plantagenet line.

You are right that noble families did intermarry, but there are more families than you might expect, particularly in Germany. That, combined with outcrossings about every third generation prevented inbreeding.

There's a reason why the Spanish Habsburg line ended with the infertile and mentally and physically disabled Charles II.

Yes, and there's also a reason he's a notable exception to the general rule.

No-one gives a **** about James II, stop building up strawmen you can knock down to try and make yourself feel smart.

Well, it wholly destroys your argument. I selected James VI/I because he was the founder of the Stuart dynasty, not because I had to cherry pick. Should I go on? I have a database of over 30k royal marriages in the period.

And, from what I see, the vast majority of those were not inbred because of the Papal restrictions on 4th order intermarriage.

I have the data, it doesn't back up your claim.

[Aeson]

For nearly a century, neither could men. In fact, the time before universal male suffrage, was longer than the time between universal male suffrage and the introduction of female suffrage.

The simple reality is that women were not allowed to vote because of their gender. It is by definition sexist.

Uh, given the context of the American revolution and the Glorious Revolution, James VI/I is the relevant example.

I made a statement about hereditary rule in general. You responded to that statement and claimed that it was false. It was clearly true. You are wrong.

[C0ckney]

all james II's good breeding didn't stop him from alienating almost everyone and then running away in the face of william and mary (who were cousins).

[Ben Kenobi]

all james II's good breeding didn't stop him from alienating almost everyone and then running away in the face of william and mary (who were cousins).

I suggest you read some of the rather odious accounts of him and his wife after they had a child. Prejudice at it's finest.

[Ben Kenobi]

The simple reality is that women were not allowed to vote because of their gender. It is by definition sexist.

And so were most men. If the franchise were sexist why did it bar men too?

You responded to that statement and claimed that it was false. It was clearly true. You are wrong.

No, it's not true. I'm sorry Aeson. I realize that you've been taught it your entire life, but it's a myth. The European nobility was not, as a rule, inbred.