Moral outrage and the U.S. Civil War

[Aeson]

Aeson: And why the South would have quickly become a very backwards place if they had successfully seceded and maintained a slave economy. They would have become (part of) the wage slaves for the North eventually.

giblets: Keeping ~40% of your population in poverty might be bad for national GDP but I'd say you're overstating the impact reducing the size of the local consumer base.

Let's look at this...

a) the North was demonstrably already able to conquer the CSA
b) we all agree slavery is inefficient
c) the North had a growing sentiment against slavery
d) the rest of the world had a growing sentiment against slavery
e) the CSA was heavily reliant on exports
f) the CSA didn't have the capital to industrialize anywhere as fast as the North
g) slaves are even more inefficient in industrial economies if the CSA ever managed to get that done
h) most of the whites in the CSA were not slave owners, and would have eventually had more opportunities emigrating to the North
i) Manifest Destiny
j) Monroe Doctrine

All of this leads to the CSA either conquered (demonstrably what happened, though we're spotting them the Civil War for kicks), or as the economic ***** of the North.

[giblets]

What exactly is an "economic *****"?

[Sava]

reality is, it wasn't possible

so you may as well just be arguing that the CSA super soldier slaves of the 22nd century would have been better equipped to protect us from the Kleeprock shock troops in the 2147 century when the portal to neptune has a signal loss and gets input from dimension 43qb32

[Aeson]

I don't see exactly what's so pro-slavery about this.

I didn't say it was pro-slavery. Pro-slavery means someone supports implementing slavery. giblets doesn't support that, he just wants to pretend it was better than it was. Given how ****ty a system it was, there's plenty of room between "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "well, it's inefficient and bad for GDP, but at least the whites aren't that bad off." Personally I find the latter distasteful.

[Aeson]

What exactly is an "economic *****"?

female dog

[Sava]

and once barack obama XXIV gets elected and moves the solar capital to new chicago, europa, titan city's currency is going to go into hyperinflataionasdk;lfhas;lkdfjasl

[giblets]

female dog

What does it mean when one country is an "economic *****" of another country?

[Sava]

I didn't say it was pro-slavery. Pro-slavery means someone supports implementing slavery. giblets doesn't support that, he just wants to pretend it was better than it was. Given how ****ty a system it was, there's plenty of room between "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "well, it's inefficient and bad for GDP, but at least the whites aren't that bad off." Personally I find the latter distasteful.

as far as I can tell, you are the only person making moral judgments on all this

lack of direct agreement isn't disagreement

[Aeson]

reality is, it wasn't possible

giblets needs a bone here ... I'm throwing him one so he can hang himself with it.

I noted a few times already it couldn't have happened, the CSA would have had to discard slavery at some point even if they somehow managed to survive the Civil War (which also didn't happen of course). The only real question is which reason/method and timing they would choose for discarding slavery if left to their own devices.

[giblets]

I didn't say it was pro-slavery. Pro-slavery means someone supports implementing slavery. giblets doesn't support that, he just wants to pretend it was better than it was. Given how ****ty a system it was, there's plenty of room between "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "well, it's inefficient and bad for GDP, but at least the whites aren't that bad off." Personally I find the latter distasteful.

Let's stick to stereotyping white southerners as inbred retards who can't even understand their own narrow self-interest, that's tasteful

[Sava]

Let's stick to stereotyping white southerners as inbred retards who can't even understand their own narrow self-interest, that's tasteful

can we all agree on this?

[Aeson]

What does it mean when one country is an "economic *****" of another country?

Press our advantage economically (sometimes militarily) to extract resources, siphon off the best talent, exploit their working class for cheap labor, undermine their political/social systems for dubious reasons. Basically what we've done to most of what's to the South of us, and various other places around the world.

[Sava]

I think "you may be overstating" is the strongest opposition I've read

[Aeson]

as far as I can tell, you are the only person making moral judgments on all this

lack of direct agreement isn't disagreement

I disagree directly with many things giblets has said. In some cases economically, in some morally.

[Sava]

I disagree directly with many things giblets has said. In some cases economically, in some morally.

Yeah we know you disagree with him. That's what is strange to me. Because... he doesn't seem to be strongly disagreeing with you.

His comments have been largely amoral as well. So I don't understand how you can disagree with him on morals either.

but

whatver