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Moral outrage and the U.S. Civil War

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  • Moral outrage and the U.S. Civil War

    (a branch-off of a discussion with Imran, where he maintained that we abandoned slavery for moral reasons)

    Yes, slavery as a system was effectively obsolete, which was why it lost. This is going on relatively scant reading, just one thick book covering the social roots of the war in general, plus tidbits picked up here and there (Larry Gonick, for example). Anyway, here's how I understand it: slavery was introduced into the Americas to meet a big demand for labor. There were lots of resources to plunder and all the Indians kept dying. But by the nineteenth century, immigrants were pouring in. Lots of white people looking for what we'd call entry-level employment--but in the South, there was hardly any to be had, because of slavery, and they kept trying to push the system into new territories. White people who wanted to grab land out West did not want half of that land being taken up by a few big landowners and their slaves. That same system, in the South, left a lot of poor crackers on patches of marginal land, who only accepted their lot because the existence of slaves gave them a kind of perverse equality with their social superiors.

    Yes, there were abolitionists. At their peak, they comprised perhaps twenty percent of the population. They had disproportionate influence because they were radical, and every rescued slave or rash statement had the whole South worried about a general insurrection. Even the abolitionists were not terribly sympathetic to blacks; with a few exceptions like John Brown, they were inclined to think of the slaves as a kind of abused animal. The general population thought slavery morally degrading (to the white owners, who learned indolence, lust and sadism from it) and a general threat to the Northern way of life. If they'd discovered the humanity of nonwhites, you'd think they wouldn't have been so gungho to drive the Indians into the Pacific at the same time. And they might not have left the South to develop Jim Crow, either.

    Slavery itself was not a terribly productive system. The workers didn't get paid, but the master still had to provide them with room, board and clothing, and they had no motivation beyond fear of the lash. They required constant supervision, and often introduced awkward obligations--what do you do with a slave who's too old to work productively, for example? It's essentially serfdom with a resentful foreign peasant class. The stupid system only lasted as long as it did because it was embedded in Southern culture. Also, nobody was quite sure what to do with the blacks when and if they were freed.

    Such is my understanding of the situation. I don't really have the energy to dig up sources, just putting this here to explain what I said.
    Last edited by Elok; September 2, 2015, 19:35. Reason: clarity
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  • #2
    For the record, the book was America Aflame by David Goldfield. Note that obsolete systems are often defended quite ferociously by those who profit from them--witness the attempts of auto dealers to suppress Tesla's direct-sale system, or the recording industry's desperate effort to put the lid back on the internet. These attempts did not come to actual violence because a whole region of the country does not have its society organized around car dealerships or music stores. Slavery was doomed to minority status at best anyway, IIRC; even many slave owners doubted whether the system could be successfully transplanted to the very different climate of the American West.
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    • #3
      Why were people willing to pay a lot of money for slaves in 1860 if slavery was already obsolete? Did white southerners stupidly waste colossal sums of money when managing their own personal finances?

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      • #4
        Two reasons: institutionalization (cultural instruments becoming institutions which only exist to further their own existence and no longer provide any societal benefits) and the fact that a few individuals can benefit or perceive benefits from a system which is a net detriment to the society as a whole or to the privileged in the long-term.

        It's the same reasons why clan tribalism, anarchy, and blood money persists in Somalia.
        "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
        "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

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        • #5
          Originally posted by giblets View Post
          Why were people willing to pay a lot of money for slaves in 1860 if slavery was already obsolete? Did white southerners stupidly waste colossal sums of money when managing their own personal finances?
          Do you seriously think they would be able to get crowds of free white Southerners to do "****** work"? Slavery operated as a kind of safety valve for the gross inequality of Southern life; poor white trash and the antebellum gentry had a kind of parity in that neither were slaves. Their whole society was structured around this moronic institution.
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          • #6
            Cultural taboos can lead people to make profoundly unwise business decisions. Cf. Medieval Europe, where religious scruples kept Christians out of the banking business for centuries, and thereby gave the whole industry over to the hated Jews. Or Japan's suicidal decision to shun all innovation and outside contact for centuries.
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            • #7
              People seeking the perceptions of their own self-interest does not necessarily produce a utility maximizing solution in the aggregate.
              "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
              "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elok View Post
                Do you seriously think they would be able to get crowds of free white Southerners to do "****** work"? Slavery operated as a kind of safety valve for the gross inequality of Southern life; poor white trash and the antebellum gentry had a kind of parity in that neither were slaves. Their whole society was structured around this moronic institution.
                Why do you think it was profitable to make slaves do unpleasant jobs?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Elok View Post
                  Cultural taboos can lead people to make profoundly unwise business decisions. Cf. Medieval Europe, where religious scruples kept Christians out of the banking business for centuries, and thereby gave the whole industry over to the hated Jews. Or Japan's suicidal decision to shun all innovation and outside contact for centuries.
                  I don't understand why you're attributing Sakoku to "cultural taboos" aside from possible stereotypes you might have in your head.

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                  • #10
                    The gang system is a system of division of labor within slavery on a plantation (also read Task System). It is the more brutal of two main types of labor systems. The other form, known as the task system, was less harsh and allowed the slaves more self-governance than did the gang system. The gang system allowed continuous work at the same pace throughout the day, never letting up or slowing down. There were three gangs. The first gang (or "great gang") was given the hardest work, for the fittest slaves. The second gang was for less able slaves (teenagers, or old people, or the unwell slaves) and this gang was given lighter work. The third gang was given the easiest work.

                    In the United States, the gang system developed in the nineteenth century and is characteristic of the ante-bellum period (c. 1820-1865). It is especially associated with cotton production in the Deep South. Rice plantations in Carolina, for example, never adopted a gang system of labor. The idea of a gang system is that enslaved workers would work all day (traditionally, from sunrise to sunset) under the supervision of an overseer. Breaks for lunch and dinner were part of the system. This is opposed to the task system, under which the worker is released when his assigned task for the day is completed.


                    It was impossible to get free labor to agree to this system without offering a sizeable wage premium. That made the usage of slaves on cotton plantations more profitable than usage of slaves in other jobs because slaves could not demand a wage premium. Slaves were generally concentrated in undesirable jobs that free labor didn't want. Since it was very profitable to force slaves to pick cotton, plantation owners were willing to pay a lot of money for slaves and states like Virginia that didn't grow much cotton exported slaves further south. After the Civil War the gang labor system on cotton plantations collapsed and was replaced with sharecropping.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by giblets View Post
                      I don't understand why you're attributing Sakoku to "cultural taboos" aside from possible stereotypes you might have in your head.
                      Okay, cultural factors in general. There was no sane reason for that bit of stupidity.
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                      • #12
                        Jon Miller.

                        I concede that I did not know about the economics of cotton farming specifically--like I said, one book, which did not go into the details of agriculture. It was quite clear that the bulk of whites simply did not give a damn about the welfare of black people, and that agrees with what I've read elsewhere. Have you heard otherwise?
                        Last edited by Elok; September 2, 2015, 22:14.
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                        • #13
                          Perhaps obsolete is the wrong word. It was abolished when it was thought to be no longer in the best interests of the majority of the more powerful classes, perhaps? It was seen as backwards and destructive to character, as well as a threat to white livelihood. The discussion frequently employed moral language, but at bottom it was about class interest.

                          EDIT: Looking back, I shouldn't even have used the word "economics" in the Crusades thread. Slavery came into being because ancient armies needed something to do with POWs they couldn't afford to feed and house, couldn't risk freeing, and didn't want to simply massacre. Slavery it was. I don't know if you'd call that "economic" causes. More technological or logistical restraints, I guess?
                          Last edited by Elok; September 2, 2015, 22:47.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elok View Post
                            Okay, cultural factors in general. There was no sane reason for that bit of stupidity.

                            I can think of good reasons for Sakoku.

                            During the Sengoku jidai (the time of warring states, where the Daimyos throughout japan waged war in order to deermine, wo would become Shogun) when there (still) was unrestricted access for gaijin (western barbarians) to Japan, there were a lot of Christian conversion attempts going on (especially from the portugese).

                            This led to a lot of tensions between japanese Buddhist .. and those that got converted to the new faith.
                            It also led to a split between the Daimyos ... those that were more open to the ways of the gaijin (who would often get to convert to christianity themselves ... would get supplied by western metal armor (a rarity in japanese society with its slight lack in iron ore) and also would get favorable import treaties for Teppos (arquebuses) ...giving them a military Advantage against the non christian damyos).

                            So, when Tokugawa Ieyasu and Oda Nobunaga won the Sengoku jidai (funny enough 2 Christian Daimyos) ... and finally Tokugawa became Shogun ... it was a drastic, but rather wise step, to throw out all gaijin ... in order to stop the split of japanese society ... and also to prevent that the western states would take steps to plot against the rule of the shogunate (for example by secretly supplying some noble houses in Japan with western weapons/Technology, in order to start a Rebellion).
                            And in fact it gave japan 2 centuries of peace, until Perry forcefully opened japan to western influence again
                            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                            • #15
                              Elok, you seem to think that slavery is a thing of the past, like it somehow 'lost' due to obsolescence...

                              This Is What Slavery Looks Like in the 21st Century

                              Slavery seems like a lost artifact from a darker, crueler part of human history, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Almost 36 million adults and children are enslaved across the world today — including in the United States, which has an estimated 60,000 slaves.

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