'70 bodies' found in abandoned lorry in Austria

[rah]

Yeah, the Euros have never been responsible for anything bad that happened in Africa.

[NICE MOBIUS]

Or the Americans for that matter...

We should know better in the 21st century, that's all.

[giblets]

Let's see, the west bombed the crap out of Libya; ISIS exists because of the west; Um, Blackhawk Down?

At least you admitted Iraq (see ISIS above) and Afghanistan.

So instead of bombing Libya... the West should have let Gaddafi win? And a failed military operation in Somalia is the reason Somalia is a basket case? And you know for a fact that ISIS could not have existed if not for the Iraq War?

[rah]

Or the Americans for that matter...

We learned from the best

[NICE MOBIUS]

You learned so well, you turned it into an artform...

[NICE MOBIUS]

So instead of bombing Libya... the West should have let Gaddafi win? And a failed military operation in Somalia is the reason Somalia is a basket case? And you know for a fact that ISIS could not have existed if not for the Iraq War?

Why not? Gaddafi was basically our friend before the uprising began - in fact it could be pedantically argued that we stabbed him in the back and hung him out to die. You would have to be a massive pedant, but it is a logically sound argument.

As for Somalia, yes, pretty much. Just like the failed military operation in Afghanistan (it's only a matter of time), and the one in Iraq (teetering on the brink).

Yes, I do know for a fact ISIS could not have existed if not for the Iraq War - ISIS are the mutant mongrel offspring of the worst parts of Al Qaeda and Iraq's Ba'athist remnants teaming up together - they are entirely the product of the West's invasion of Iraq. FACT!

[rah]

While I mostly agree, I think a version of it would eventually exist somewhere. We just gave it a jump start

[NICE MOBIUS]

No. ISIS is entirely created out of the black hole created by invading Iraq and the subsequent destabilisation of Syria. ISIS could not exist anywhere else in the world because of what it represents.

[kentonio]

No. ISIS is entirely created out of the black hole created by invading Iraq and the subsequent destabilisation of Syria. ISIS could not exist anywhere else in the world because of what it represents.

Not technically true, it could well have sprung up in Saudi Arabia, as that's where the previous incarnations seem to have originated.

[pchang]

Why not? Gaddafi was basically our friend before the uprising began - in fact it could be pedantically argued that we stabbed him in the back and hung him out to die. You would have to be a massive pedant, but it is a logically sound argument.

As for Somalia, yes, pretty much. Just like the failed military operation in Afghanistan (it's only a matter of time), and the one in Iraq (teetering on the brink).

Yes, I do know for a fact ISIS could not have existed if not for the Iraq War - ISIS are the mutant mongrel offspring of the worst parts of Al Qaeda and Iraq's Ba'athist remnants teaming up together - they are entirely the product of the West's invasion of Iraq. FACT!

Maybe you liked him, but Gaddafi was not a friend. Remember Lockerbie?

[Dinner]

Annoying question I don't have an honest answer to: If they want to escape famine and war, why is it then that most of them want to escape to North Western Europe? Surely they could stay in Southern Europe and be helped there until their return?

The reality is there is no famine or war in Turkey, Lebanon, or Jordan. They are kept in refugee camps though where there is no work and that is why the women (for now) stay where it is safe while the young men become economic migrants.

[Bereta_Eder]

Most of them are families.
And there is war in Turkey. It goes on a limp to eradicate the PKK and the hard left wing (again it will fail, you can't eradicate 20 million people no matter how much your allies turn a blind eye).

Admittedly though the refugees are on the west coast and the war is raging on the east.

[C0ckney]

So instead of bombing Libya... the West should have let Gaddafi win?

yes.

[C0ckney]

Not technically true, it could well have sprung up in Saudi Arabia, as that's where the previous incarnations seem to have originated.

while ISIS may take some of its ideological inspiration from saudi arabia, its officer corps and intelligence service are dominated by ex-ba'arthists.

[C0ckney]

The reality is there is no famine or war in Turkey, Lebanon, or Jordan. They are kept in refugee camps though where there is no work and that is why the women (for now) stay where it is safe while the young men become economic migrants.

lebanon, with a population of 4.5 million and host to over 1 million syrian refugees, can hardly do more than it's doing; it certainly puts the whining from europeans into perspective. jordan and turkey are doing a lot too, but they are also contributing to the war in syria in various ways, as are hezbollah from the lebanese side.