So...I'm Thinking About Next U.S. Presidential Election

[Imran Siddiqui]

That's an interesting re-writing of what actually happened. I asked a question, went off in the meantime and found a theory that to my mind when a long way to explaining it, came back and brought it up only to be told by you that the black community wouldn't go for it. I'm still highly curious about why you think the black community thinks with a single mind, and even more curious what makes you their spokesperson.

That's why I said you don't speak for the black community, not because I wanted to have a go at you, but because you'd already chosen not to debate but instead to fall back on 'I know better'.

A) The Silver article had links to polls. You know, where they ask people things in a statistically valid sample. And if you actually clicked through, you'd see the breakdown of what is important to each group (including how blacks feel how important addressing race relations are).
B) Go back and read the discussion to that point - you are wrong. The post before that was a simply "I disagree" and that you have to convince black people of that narrative and you likely won't (you know, based on Point A - this notion of what blacks think of Sanders is based on multiple polls)

[kentonio]

A) The Silver article had links to polls. You know, where they ask people things in a statistically valid sample. And if you actually clicked through, you'd see the breakdown of what is important to each group (including how blacks feel how important addressing race relations are).

Which is an obvious response to feeling like race relations aren't being dealt with in any meaningful way. It doesn't mean that a conversation can't be start in that community about practical solutions that could make everything else easier.

B) Go back and read the discussion to that point - you are wrong. The post before that was a simply "I disagree" and that you have to convince black people of that narrative and you likely won't (you know, based on Point A - this notion of what blacks think of Sanders is based on multiple polls)

I just went back and re-read. The first dickish post was 387, and it was yours.

[N35t0r]

To follow up, I'd actually disagree quite strongly that Hispanics are treated just as bad as African-Americans. In addition, I think do think that Hispanic discrimination is tied far more to economic factors - the immigration issues tend to put that somewhat starkly. However, well off Hispanics are treated fairly. I mean no one is pulling over Hispanics in Mercedes. There really isn't a Driving While Brown meme as there is a Driving While Black one.

I never said just as bad, but they do face similar issues (it does seem that there is a larger difference than what I thought). They do have the advantage of lacking a history of slavery and opression.

[Imran Siddiqui]

384 comes before 387 sweetie

[kentonio]

384 comes before 387 sweetie

I know there's this idea that putting 'no offense' before a sentence means you actually want to be offensive, but in this case it meant what it said. You don't speak for the whole black community, but I didnt want to say it in a rude way.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They do have the advantage of lacking a history of slavery and opression.

Exactly, and the narrative of the slavery era was more of a moral narrative. The whole we are a better race than they are - kind of similar to a white man's burden idea of colonization. That's where the whole 'uppity' stuff came from - blacks were thinking they were just as good as the whites and that was not ok as a moral principle.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I know there's this idea that putting 'no offense' before a sentence means you actually want to be offensive, but in this case it meant what it said. You don't speak for the whole black community, but I didnt want to say it in a rude way.

You were speaking for the black community just as much. If you want to get dismissive, don't get all bent out of joint if the person you are talking to decides not to play nice either.

[kentonio]

You were speaking for the black community just as much. If you want to get dismissive, don't get all bent out of joint if the person you are talking to decides not to play nice either.

I really wasn't. I think on this side of the ocean we just debate in a much more forthright (or maybe combatative) way. My perfect outcome would have been you ripping my ideas apart and me learning something new as a result. A part of that though is me putting forward those ideas with enough conviction for them to be properly tested.

Ah well, it doesn't matter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ladies and gentlemen, your next President of the United States:

[N35t0r]

Exactly, and the narrative of the slavery era was more of a moral narrative. The whole we are a better race than they are - kind of similar to a white man's burden idea of colonization. That's where the whole 'uppity' stuff came from - blacks were thinking they were just as good as the whites and that was not ok as a moral principle.

But the main backing these kinds of racist beliefs have (at least subconciously) is how blacks as a group are still disproportionately represented in crime figures, which is largely a consequence of the economic reality (which is a consequence of both the economic reality of the previous generation and of racism).

[N35t0r]

Ladies and gentlemen, your next President of the United States:

Blocked at work

[Imran Siddiqui]

But the main backing these kinds of racist beliefs have (at least subconciously) is how blacks as a group are still disproportionately represented in crime figures, which is largely a consequence of the economic reality (which is a consequence of both the economic reality of the previous generation and of racism).

I'd actually argue the opposite. The economic reality bolstered the racist creation. Recall that white slave owners forbid blacks from reading (mostly to prevent them from conspiring, but also because they supposedly couldn't reason as well) - this lack of education was something that had to be overcome after emancipation, but it came from a core of moral belief in the truth of racism. And remember Jim Crow - a separate water fountain for blacks and separate bathrooms, not because black folks may do violence if there was sharing of facilities, but to prevent the inferior race from despoiling what white people had to use.

[N35t0r]

I'd actually argue the opposite. The economic reality bolstered the racist creation. Recall that white slave owners forbid blacks from reading (mostly to prevent them from conspiring, but also because they supposedly couldn't reason as well) - this lack of education was something that had to be overcome after emancipation, but it came from a core of moral belief in the truth of racism. And remember Jim Crow - a separate water fountain for blacks and separate bathrooms, not because black folks may do violence if there was sharing of facilities, but to prevent the inferior race from despoiling what white people had to use.

I don't think that that kind of thinking is very prevalent today (except perhaps among the older generation in certain southern states), thanks mainly to the civil rights movement and government programs, but rather that it was slowly replaced by the 'blacks are criminals and/or thugs' mentality, which is much harder to combat from the racism angle (at least as long as, for whatever reason, blacks still are responsible for a higher than average proportion of violent crime).

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, of course the entire post-Ferguson movement, including the responses to the Charleston shooting, have been combated from an anti-racism angle. The move against the Confederate battle flag (which some say is nothing important, but I think they don't really understand the power of symbols upon the thinking of individuals) has come directly out of that as well. I have seen, personally, people who have gone from casual racism or just being a bystander to an entirely different way of thinking, of realizing stuff they just put up with was wrong and hurtful. True empathy. FWIW, this is also how a sea change occurred in the LGBT movement here.

Economic inequality reform has got to come as well, but racism as an underlying presence (as some have called it - "America's original sin") has to be combated on its own regard.

[N35t0r]

Of course, it's just my opinion that a lot of the large-scale justification for that racism comes, nowadays, from issues that are better combatted through economic means (taking the same approach during/after Jim Crow wouldn't have helped)