So...I'm Thinking About Next U.S. Presidential Election

[kentonio]

I don't think it's not that he lacks knowledge that these groups have their own issues and concerns; its that he thinks they all tie back to economic inequality. He didn't just call himself a Socialist for fun. He does believe in the underpinnings - that the base of society problems are economic in nature.

It does pretty much all come down to economic inequality at its roots.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's a bit more complicated than that.

[kentonio]

It's a bit more complicated than that.

Not really. Consider the issues that contribute to an unequal racial society, and at their core almost all could be solved by a more equal economic basis. If you try and fight individual racial fires without putting out the molten core underneath then you're never going to achieve anything long term.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Racism is its own separate issue, not even particularly related to economic equality. The differences in economic performance for, say, African-Americans compared to Whites are not simply due to lack of economic equality - it goes down to a deeper racial reason. And if you don't understand that, you'll never win the black vote.

[-Jrabbit]

Blacks may well be the most conservative of all Dem-leaning ethnic groups in the US. Not good for Bernie.

Plus, he's got a significant name-recognition problem relative to Hillary.

[kentonio]

Racism is its own separate issue, not even particularly related to economic equality. The differences in economic performance for, say, African-Americans compared to Whites are not simply due to lack of economic equality - it goes down to a deeper racial reason. And if you don't understand that, you'll never win the black vote.

Those deeper racial reasons are at their heart usually economically motivated. A huge part of the racism that persists in America is due to a false narrative that sees the poverty, high rates of violence, incarceration and drug involvement and incorrectly assigns them as black culture rather than as simply a symptom of low income communities. Obviously poor whites have the same issues, but because black are disproportionately poor by comparison, their race becomes a marker that people can use to assign blame to something simple rather than something very complex.

Solve that huge unemployment and income inequality and most of the negative things people currently wrongly associate with race largely disappear. Obviously you'll still have issues with racism at some level (as humans have always had a propensity to cling to people they see as most like themselves and treat those different with suspicion) but nothing like we see today.

[rah]

Blacks may well be the most conservative of all Dem-leaning ethnic groups in the US. Not good for Bernie.

Plus, he's got a significant name-recognition problem relative to Hillary.

I thought most people were familiar with the Colonel.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Those deeper racial reasons are at their heart usually economically motivated. A huge part of the racism that persists in America is due to a false narrative that sees the poverty, high rates of violence, incarceration and drug involvement and incorrectly assigns them as black culture rather than as simply a symptom of low income communities. Obviously poor whites have the same issues, but because black are disproportionately poor by comparison, their race becomes a marker that people can use to assign blame to something simple rather than something very complex.

I, and many in the black community, disagree. Even the rates of incarceration among poor whites compared to poor blacks is highly disproportionate.

Regardless of what you think about it or not, you aren't going to convince folks in the black community of that narrative.

[kentonio]

I, and many in the black community, disagree. Even the rates of incarceration among poor whites compared to poor blacks is highly disproportionate.

It's not that economics is the direct reason why racist police and judges are contributing to a higher rate of search, arrest and incarceration, its just the foundation underpinning the whole thing. What solution do you have exactly? Make judges and police somehow stop being inherently racist? Sure there's methods you could use to try and stop abuses of the system, but none of them do anything to solve the basic issues that lead to that point in the first place. What's the goal we want to aim for? Make sure black kids are only locked up at the same rate as white kids? Or maybe raise their opportunities and living conditions so that crime isn't seen as a necessity for survival or the only way to rise out of the poverty trap in the first place?

Regardless of what you think about it or not, you aren't going to convince folks in the black community of that narrative.

No offense but you don't speak for the black community. There are already several prominent black figures arguing these issues on Sanders behalf, and if his campaign continues to grow in momentum that number will rise.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's not that economics is the direct reason why racist police and judges are contributing to a higher rate of search, arrest and incarceration, its just the foundation underpinning the whole thing. What solution do you have exactly? Make judges and police somehow stop being inherently racist? Sure there's methods you could use to try and stop abuses of the system, but none of them do anything to solve the basic issues that lead to that point in the first place. What's the goal we want to aim for? Make sure black kids are only locked up at the same rate as white kids? Or maybe raise their opportunities and living conditions so that crime isn't seen as a necessity for survival or the only way to rise out of the poverty trap in the first place?

Focusing on issues as racially based, as opposed to simply issues as economic is a good initial step in trying to figure out what to do. Further empowering and funding the DOJ's Office of Civil Rights to go after racist police systems like Ferguson, Mo, is a great movement in the right direction. Realizing that things like taking down Confederate flags from buildings, while not changing the underlying problem, but doing a good deal to change the mentality, is a great movement in the right direction.

I mean if its just about economic poverty, why are poor blacks in jail more than poor whites as a percentage? (btw, is a stat that ever racist likes to bring up seemingly) It's more than simple economics. Raising living conditions so crime isn't seen as a "necessity for survival" isn't going to accomplish much if the community sees law enforcement as the enemy. If people deny opportunities to people with more black sounding names (in dealing with that strengthening enforcement against disparate impact is key). You can go economic inequality all you want, but there is a reason that the black vote is not with those who use that as their rallying cry, which brings me to...

No offense but you don't speak for the black community. There are already several prominent black figures arguing these issues on Sanders behalf, and if his campaign continues to grow in momentum that number will rise.

Seriously, you mention the Nate Silver article, wonder why blacks aren't polling for Sanders and post this? I mean this is whiplash inducing stuff here.

[kentonio]

Focusing on issues as racially based, as opposed to simply issues as economic is a good initial step in trying to figure out what to do. Further empowering and funding the DOJ's Office of Civil Rights to go after racist police systems like Ferguson, Mo, is a great movement in the right direction. Realizing that things like taking down Confederate flags from buildings, while not changing the underlying problem, but doing a good deal to change the mentality, is a great movement in the right direction.

Bandaids. The same kind of surface level solutions that have singularly failed to solve the major issues for the last 40-50 years.

I mean if its just about economic poverty, why are poor blacks in jail more than poor whites as a percentage? (btw, is a stat that ever racist likes to bring up seemingly) It's more than simple economics. Raising living conditions so crime isn't seen as a "necessity for survival" isn't going to accomplish much if the community sees law enforcement as the enemy.

If blacks aren't living in poverty in disproportionate numbers, you remove a lot of the negative imagery that feeds into white peoples racism towards them. Yes that might not sound like a great rallying call to blacks 'Hey if we can make your communities less poor, then white people won't be so racist towards you!' but its part of the truth none the less. It'll also reduce the opportunity smalltime racists have to impact on the lives of black people. Wealth gives power and opportunity.

None of this is to say that there aren't racial initiatives that could be made to help the issue, but without income equality its meaningless. Like getting offended on behalf of the native Americans over a football teams name while their people suffer horrific levels of poverty, crime and rampant drug and alcohol abuse.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Bandaids. The same kind of surface level solutions that have singularly failed to solve the major issues for the last 40-50 years.

Yes, race relations and issues within and outside of the black community as just as bad as they were in 1965...

So this is one of those kentonio lectures Americans about how their country works while talking out of his ass things, isn't it?

If blacks aren't living in poverty in disproportionate numbers, you remove a lot of the negative imagery that feeds into white peoples racism towards them. Yes that might not sound like a great rallying call to blacks 'Hey if we can make your communities less poor, then white people won't be so racist towards you!' but its part of the truth none the less.

All that stuff against millionaire rap artists (most recently see Geraldo's comments against Kendrick Lamar) is obviously because they are impoverished...

[kentonio]

Yes, race relations and issues within and outside of the black community as just as bad as they were in 1965...

No they're not, but there's still a huge income inequality that isn't going anywhere, especially now income inequality across the whole of society is growing.

So this is one of those kentonio lectures Americans about how their country works while talking out of his ass things, isn't it?

No, this is one of those time when an American is so incapable of having a discussion on the merits of the arguments being made, that they have to fall back on idiotic comments about the other guy being a foreigner and therefore apparently incapable to discussing 'Murican issues.

All that stuff against millionaire rap artists (most recently see Geraldo's comments against Kendrick Lamar) is obviously because they are impoverished...

Rap, a music form that came to prominence amongst impoverished black communities as a way of rebelling against the daily injustices they were suffering at the hands of a racist state. Good choice of example.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, this is one of those time when an American is so incapable of having a discussion on the merits of the arguments being made, that they have to fall back on idiotic comments about the other guy being a foreigner and therefore apparently incapable to discussing 'Murican issues.

When you kind of run into this comment on various issues, from various Americans along the spectrum, maybe you should take note?

Rap, a music form that came to prominence amongst impoverished black communities as a way of rebelling against the daily injustices they were suffering at the hands of a racist state. Good choice of example.

Uh... because obviously prosperous white kids who are listening to stuff like Kanye West are perpetuating that the music form is about poverty (West does rap about racism quite often) and that's why West is suffering racism by people. Same thing with Jazz and Blues music, right? Wait.. do you still think that most rap is the music "of the streets"?

[kentonio]

When you kind of run into this comment on various issues, from various Americans along the spectrum, maybe you should take note?

I do take note. Of the sadly all too common sense of national superiority that infects too many otherwise reasonable Americans. Seriously, if you have the facts on your side, then having to resort to 'well what would you know, you're a foreigner' is a pretty pathetic place to find yourself.

Uh... because obviously prosperous white kids who are listening to stuff like Kanye West are perpetuating that the music form is about poverty (West does rap about racism quite often) and that's why West is suffering racism by people. Same thing with Jazz and Blues music, right? Wait.. do you still think that most rap is the music "of the streets"?

You pointed to people attacking millionaire rappers as if that somehow invalidated the poverty argument, despite the fact that the roots of rap are poverty and even the videos and music of the millionaire rappers you speak of constantly reference and in many ways rely on the image of that poverty.

To be honest though, **** it. If you can't have a discussion without throwing insults and petty bull**** then I've got better things to do. This being Poly I really shouldn't be surprised, yet for some reason I am with you.