So...I'm Thinking About Next U.S. Presidential Election

[DinoDoc]

I suppose we have Bernie to thank for this: Hillary Clinton’s push on gun control marks a shift in presidential politics

People at RNC HQ must be high fiving each other now.

[giblets]

The most amusing part of that, of course, is that NWA were around 30 years ago. Gangsta rap is dead, FWIW. Kanye killed it (no, really - when Graduation came out on the same day as 50 Cent's Curtis and smoked it, that was basically the end of gangsta rap, or at least as anything to do in the mainstream music scene).

All this goes back to the kind of asinine idea that if black people were more economically prosperous, people wouldn't be racist towards them. I am confident that we posters in the US have all witnessed some forms of racism against very well off African-Americans - and not because people thought they were "thugs" or "criminals". It's the irony that kentonio talks about "there's a much more complicated argument" when my original point was there's a much more complicated argument to racism derives from economic inequality. In essence, if you want to talk about "root causes" - one can easily say that racism itself is a root cause of racial economic inequality, not the other way around.

And that's why Bernie Sanders isn't getting the support of the black community and will not. *drops mic

A more obvious example of bigotry that has nothing to do with economics would be the LGBT movement. The idea that everyone would be treated equally if we just had a Scandinavian-style welfare state is ludicrous.

[N35t0r]

Yet scandinavian countries are among the best with regards to LGBT rights...

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can assure you that as a whole, LGBT folks in the US were just as wealthy, if not more, than the general population.

[N35t0r]

I don't think there's a large difference.

In any case, LGBT went from being a highly discriminated minority to being a relatively acceptable minority in very little time, and the main reason they were viewed with distrust ('They'll destroy the family' and 'they prey on children') had little to do with economics.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Indeed.

I think you'll find quite a bit of the invidious discrimination against African-Americans in the US has little to do with economics as well (all you have to do is witness one instance of an older white guy wearing a t-shirt and jeans look uncomfortable around a black man in a nice suit to understand).

[kentonio]

The most amusing part of that, of course, is that NWA were around 30 years ago. Gangsta rap is dead, FWIW. Kanye killed it (no, really - when Graduation came out on the same day as 50 Cent's Curtis and smoked it, that was basically the end of gangsta rap, or at least as anything to do in the mainstream music scene).

Now I really have heard everything. 30 years ago in the social memory is NOTHING, in the same way that the effects of open discrimination by the state against blacks pre-civil rights continues to shape those communities today. The idea that the roots of rap are no longer relevant to how people perceive the rap scene (and indeed how the roots continue to shape the lyrical style and imagery today) is just ridiculous.

All this goes back to the kind of asinine idea that if black people were more economically prosperous, people wouldn't be racist towards them. I am confident that we posters in the US have all witnessed some forms of racism against very well off African-Americans - and not because people thought they were "thugs" or "criminals". It's the irony that kentonio talks about "there's a much more complicated argument" when my original point was there's a much more complicated argument to racism derives from economic inequality. In essence, if you want to talk about "root causes" - one can easily say that racism itself is a root cause of racial economic inequality, not the other way around.

It's a complex argument with economic inequality at its root. So far I've heard nothing back from you other than 'racism is complicated'. Well duh. Did I not also say that the simple racism of suspicion towards those who look different was (and always has been) an issue too, or did you skip over that part in your eagerness to get personal?

And that's why Bernie Sanders isn't getting the support of the black community and will not. *drops mic

Well we'll see won't we.

[kentonio]

Oh and here's Killer Mike endorsing Sanders on account of how out of touch he is with the black community and all..

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...run-the-jewels

I will not support another Clinton or back a Bush. American political families are becoming a monarchy and this country needs no Kings or Queens.

A photo posted by Killer Mike (@killermikegto) on Jun 30, 2015 at 12:38am PDT

[Imran Siddiqui]

The idea that the roots of rap are no longer relevant to how people perceive the rap scene (and indeed how the roots continue to shape the lyrical style and imagery today) is just ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is that you think that people think of the rap scene and picture NWA. Maybe its because things are different in Britain, but 30 years is a lifetime in the culture here.

It's a complex argument with economic inequality at its root. So far I've heard nothing back from you other than 'racism is complicated'. Well duh. Did I not also say that the simple racism of suspicion towards those who look different was (and always has been) an issue too, or did you skip over that part in your eagerness to get personal?

You've got the root backwards as I've constantly been telling you. You want to bang the Sanders' drum of "its all economic at its core" and then be all confused as to why blacks aren't buying it. And then when someone tries to explain it to you, you get all mad and huffy and claim people are speaking for all blacks, but they'll come around (as if that doesn't mean you are doing the same thing you were just decrying). But, of course, it doesn't matter when you get to lecture Americans about how much more you know about their country, right?

I mean you are kind of become a parody of yourself. Why won't blacks support Sanders in the polls?! Of course blacks are going to support Sanders, how dare you insinuate the opposite?!!1!!

[kentonio]

What is ridiculous is that you think that people think of the rap scene and picture NWA. Maybe its because things are different in Britain, but 30 years is a lifetime in the culture here.

30 years is nothing. It's not about what people think of when you say the word 'rap', its about how that scene sinks into the national consciousness and has effects far beyond the music. Rap was a rebellion against authority, and that rebellion had real and significant effects on how the nation came to view black inner city communities.

You've got the root backwards as I've constantly been telling you. You want to bang the Sanders' drum of "its all economic at its core" and then be all confused as to why blacks aren't buying it. And then when someone tries to explain it to you, you get all mad and huffy and claim people are speaking for all blacks, but they'll come around (as if that doesn't mean you are doing the same thing you were just decrying). But, of course, it doesn't matter when you get to lecture Americans about how much more you know about their country, right?

No Imran, I didn't get 'all mad and huffy', I thought we were having in interesting discussion and then you decided to get personal and basically tell me I'm a ****ing idiot who couldn't understand these oh so complicated things because I'm not even American. It didn't seem to matter that significant numbers of Americans think the same thing, you just decided to make it personal and patronize the **** out of me. So yes, now I'm mad and huffy because you've been acting like an *******.

[N35t0r]

But I do think that, unlike the LGBT comunity, black discrimination in the US is highly related to economic issues, and that solving those is necessary in order to acheive something better.

Compare perceived discrimination against latinos and asians: the former (mainly poor immigrants from mexico and central america) are seen as lazy and untrustworthy, and face discrimination almost to the same levels as blacks, while the latter are seen as more hardworking and face much less dscrimination (at least nowadays, it wasn't the same 20 years ago).

When a large part of the perceived distrust stems from situations directly related to economic issues, you can't ignore them. Earlier on, you mentioned that the government has been dealing with the economic issues since the 1960s... It has also been dealing with cultural racism. I think it has had much larger effect in the latter than with the former, especially since income inequality is going up, not down, and that much more effort is required to break the current cycle.

[Imran Siddiqui]

30 years is nothing. It's not about what people think of when you say the word 'rap', its about how that scene sinks into the national consciousness and has effects far beyond the music. Rap was a rebellion against authority, and that rebellion had real and significant effects on how the nation came to view black inner city communities.

Punk was a rebellion against authority int he 1970s. The Offspring and Green Day came out in the 1990s calling themselves "punk" (pop punk, but still). What do you think the "national consciousness" of punk rock is? If you say its the view of snotty kids listening to Green Day, you win a cookie.

No Imran, I didn't get 'all mad and huffy', I thought we were having in interesting discussion and then you decided to get personal and basically tell me I'm a ****ing idiot who couldn't understand these oh so complicated things because I'm not even American. It didn't seem to matter that significant numbers of Americans think the same thing, you just decided to make it personal and patronize the **** out of me. So yes, now I'm mad and huffy because you've been acting like an *******.

For a little recap:

Question is though, why is his polling so low with non-whites? I can't actually think of any reason why it would be in particular, other than Clinton already having huge sway with those demographics. It'd be interesting to see what his positive/negative numbers are like with non-whites who already recognize his name.

No offense but you don't speak for the black community. There are already several prominent black figures arguing these issues on Sanders behalf, and if his campaign continues to grow in momentum that number will rise.

Translation: kentonio already has a narrative of why he thinks Sanders' numbers are low in the black community and wants to try to put it forth as a "debate". It's because they just haven't heard of him. Anyone advancing other theories really doesn't have really have facts or knowledge and doesn't speak for the black community, therefore their beliefs are easily to be ignored in favor of the already accepted narrative.

This is coupled with the fact that you've repeatedly shown on this forum that you have absolutely no idea how American culture actually functions.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Compare perceived discrimination against latinos and asians: the former (mainly poor immigrants from mexico and central america) are seen as lazy and untrustworthy, and face discrimination almost to the same levels as blacks

Do you think so?

[kentonio]

Punk was a rebellion against authority int he 1970s. The Offspring and Green Day came out in the 1990s calling themselves "punk" (pop punk, but still). What do you think the "national consciousness" of punk rock is? If you say its the view of snotty kids listening to Green Day, you win a cookie.

Wrong, but I shouldn't be surprised by now.

For a little recap:

Translation: kentonio already has a narrative of why he thinks Sanders' numbers are low in the black community and wants to try to put it forth as a "debate". It's because they just haven't heard of him. Anyone advancing other theories really doesn't have really have facts or knowledge and doesn't speak for the black community, therefore their beliefs are easily to be ignored in favor of the already accepted narrative.

That's an interesting re-writing of what actually happened. I asked a question, went off in the meantime and found a theory that to my mind when a long way to explaining it, came back and brought it up only to be told by you that the black community wouldn't go for it. I'm still highly curious about why you think the black community thinks with a single mind, and even more curious what makes you their spokesperson.

That's why I said you don't speak for the black community, not because I wanted to have a go at you, but because you'd already chosen not to debate but instead to fall back on 'I know better'.

This is coupled with the fact that you've repeatedly shown on this forum that you have absolutely no idea how American culture actually functions.

Examples please. I'd hate to think you were lazy, as well as patronizing, rude and condescending.

[Imran Siddiqui]

To follow up, I'd actually disagree quite strongly that Hispanics are treated just as bad as African-Americans. In addition, I think do think that Hispanic discrimination is tied far more to economic factors - the immigration issues tend to put that somewhat starkly. However, well off Hispanics are treated fairly. I mean no one is pulling over Hispanics in Mercedes. There really isn't a Driving While Brown meme as there is a Driving While Black one.