So...I'm Thinking About Next U.S. Presidential Election

[Imran Siddiqui]

I do take note. Of the sadly all too common sense of national superiority that infects too many otherwise reasonable Americans. Seriously, if you have the facts on your side, then having to resort to 'well what would you know, you're a foreigner' is a pretty pathetic place to find yourself.

It's more about when you ignore the facts when it becomes obvious you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about when it comes to the US.

You pointed to people attacking millionaire rappers as if that somehow invalidated the poverty argument, despite the fact that the roots of rap are poverty and even the videos and music of the millionaire rappers you speak of constantly reference and in many ways rely on the image of that poverty.

The roots of jazz and blues are poverty. While you may have had many more images of poverty in prior decades, what gets the ire up of most people are videos and music involving gaudy displays of money, such as gold grills and expensive cars, and women dancing around suggestively. Its like you don't have any idea what racists criticize about rap culture.

[kentonio]

It's more about when you ignore the facts when it becomes obvious you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about when it comes to the US.

Except there are no 'facts' here, because if there were you could simply point them out and immediately demolish my argument. Instead its about opinions and perception, something that when you're very close to an issue and subjected to constant media interpretation you can end up seeing in a completely different way to a neutral observer who is looking from the outside. Of course discussing that wouldn't be anywhere near as satisfying as just telling the dumb foreigner that they don't know shit of course.

The roots of jazz and blues are poverty. While you may have had many more images of poverty in prior decades, what gets the ire up of most people are videos and music involving gaudy displays of money, such as gold grills and expensive cars, and women dancing around suggestively. Its like you don't have any idea what racists criticize about rap culture.

Gaudy displays of money and wealth that are negatively perceived because they are seen as intrinsically tied into images of crime, violence and a general sense of wealth unfairly earned. Missing completely the point that those messages were originally intended as a big **** you to the society that maintained those poverty stricken communities using discrimination, police brutality and unfair governmental systems.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Except there are no 'facts' here, because if there were you could simply point them out and immediately demolish my argument.

You mean like how poor blacks get convicted of crimes at a higher rate than poor whites? Which led to some weird opinion about its because blacks are seen as more poor in general or some such nonsense, as opposed to... you know... racism, not tied to economics.

Gaudy displays of money and wealth that are negatively perceived because they are seen as intrinsically tied into images of crime, violence and a general sense of wealth unfairly earned.

This obviously applies to nouveux riche such as Wall Street millionaires. They are seen by the old rich as criminals and violent people. Of course.

Missing completely the point that those messages were originally intended as a big **** you to the society that maintained those poverty stricken communities using discrimination, police brutality and unfair governmental systems.

Or... to showcase that they had cash and could buy cool stuff like Air Jordan's. I wasn't aware that when kids taunted each other on who had Jordan's it was really that they were saying **** you to the society.

[kentonio]

You mean like how poor blacks get convicted of crimes at a higher rate than poor whites? Which led to some weird opinion about its because blacks are seen as more poor in general or some such nonsense, as opposed to... you know... racism, not tied to economics.

Except that isn't a fact that's up for debate, all we were discussing was the roots of these problems. Which I'm suggesting lead from racists painting an entire disadvantaged community as thugs and criminals, and suggesting that raising the overall prosperity of that community can over the long term remove that ammunition and help remove the opportunities for discrimination.

Is it so ****ing hard to grasp that just maybe there's a much more complicated argument here than just 'being poor doesn't make racists lock up more black people, duh'.

This obviously applies to nouveux riche such as Wall Street millionaires. They are seen by the old rich as criminals and violent people. Of course.

Try saying something that actually makes sense. Oh and kindly stick your ill placed sarcasm up your ass while you're at it.

Or... to showcase that they had cash and could buy cool stuff like Air Jordan's. I wasn't aware that when kids taunted each other on who had Jordan's it was really that they were saying **** you to the society.

Good point. When NWA made **** The Police they were clearly showcasing their sneakers.

Let's just stop here. You're so determined to try and be a snarky little dick, that you've stopped even being interesting.

[giblets]

Let's stereotype all rappers as NWA

[giblets]

All rap is political commentary and it's never lowbrow entertainment

[kentonio]

Nah, instead let's just ignore the roots of rap as a form of expression against discrimination and oppression amongst a social group who felt they had no other voice. Let's focus on the sneakers and bling instead, as that's apparently so much more important.

[giblets]

I seriously doubt that all early rappers were political.

edit:

"Party rhymes", meant to pump up the crowd at a party, were nearly the exclusive focus of old school hip hop, and they remain a staple of hip-hop music to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping#Subject_matter

lol

[self biased]

does anyone else find it hilarious that Kentonio is arguing with Imran about racism?

[-Jrabbit]

No good can come from posting in this thread.

[jsorense]

No good can come from posting in this thread.

[kentonio]

does anyone else find it hilarious that Kentonio is arguing with Imran about racism?

Why? We're not arguing about the experience of racism, just possible long term social solutions. Being part of a minority doesn't give you any magical answers to that. I'm also taking a position shared by many black people, not just making some **** up off the top of my head.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Let's stereotype all rappers as NWA

The most amusing part of that, of course, is that NWA were around 30 years ago. Gangsta rap is dead, FWIW. Kanye killed it (no, really - when Graduation came out on the same day as 50 Cent's Curtis and smoked it, that was basically the end of gangsta rap, or at least as anything to do in the mainstream music scene).

All this goes back to the kind of asinine idea that if black people were more economically prosperous, people wouldn't be racist towards them. I am confident that we posters in the US have all witnessed some forms of racism against very well off African-Americans - and not because people thought they were "thugs" or "criminals". It's the irony that kentonio talks about "there's a much more complicated argument" when my original point was there's a much more complicated argument to racism derives from economic inequality. In essence, if you want to talk about "root causes" - one can easily say that racism itself is a root cause of racial economic inequality, not the other way around.

And that's why Bernie Sanders isn't getting the support of the black community and will not. *drops mic

[N35t0r]

Um, as long as a relatively much higher percentage of blacks are poor, that large majority will affect how all blacks are percieved by society as a whole.

Racism and lack of economic prosperity form some sort of vicious cycle, and of course they both influence each other, but I feel that Kentonio is correct that solving the economic disparity will do more to solve racism than solving racism will to solve the economic disparity (while being relatively easier to do). This does not mean that effort should only be put into one of both - you need to tackle the issue at both ends for a better chace at solving the issue - but government is much better equipped to deal with economic issues, especially on the shorter term.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The government of course HAS BEEN dealing with economic issues in these instances. Since the 1960s. But to couch the issue of racism as solely something of economic inequality misses the point entirely. There are different cultural norms that don't have much to do with poverty (or if they did don't have much to do with it now) - for example walk into a majority black church and a majority white church. The differences are stark, and some of those may be due to the slavery era that have carried over in the culture of the last 150 years, but you will find racism in how it is perceived (good or bad) even in very very affluent African-American Churches to this day. That's not something that will change due to increased economic prosperity. That is a social cultural issue. And couching all racial issues in terms of economics as opposed to social and cultural issues completely misses the point. You get things were people pat themselves on the back for sponsoring Affirmative Action programs and Aid to Dependent Children, all the while racism continues to lurk. That was kind of the entire underpinning of the Charleston Church shooting and all of the Confederate flags that still fly all over the place.