Next Game of Thrones book The Winds of Winter won't be out until 2016

[I AM MOBIUS]

Is this post intentionally ironic, or do you just lack any self-awareness?

Neither ironic, nor lacking in self-awareness. I thought better of you, Lori, oh well

[Elok]

I have this ominous feeling that King Fatty McUseless is going to die in the upcoming melee, making room on the throne for someone with more scenery-chewing prowess.

(yes, this thread is now my damn liveblog; deal with it)

EDIT: Huh, he survived.

[Lorizael]

Neither ironic, nor lacking in self-awareness. I thought better of you, Lori, oh well

You thought I would share in your penchant for ridiculing people based on their choice of literature? Oops.

[Guynemer]

No.

That's like, your opinion, man.

Spoiler:

If he didn't do what he did, both he, his sister, and all of his children would be executed on the spot. So.

[Guynemer]

Also, regarding Cersei,

Spoiler:

her ultimate punishment, so far, is so completely wrong and evil and vile that you DO get some sympathy for her, even if she is still entirely in the wrong.

[self biased]

I think so.

Spoiler:

Her marriage to Robert was a ****ty deal. He was an abusive drunk who raped her repeatedly, and there was absolutely nothing she could do about it because he was the king.

Spoiler:

i dunno. she spends all of her time playing at being a manipulative shrew, and she's not very good at it. it was nice to see her get some kind of comeuppance at the end of the one book, but i was super disappointed that what is presumably Gregor Clegane's shambling corpse swooped in to save her.

I was also pretty disappointed that Jamie, a character who had undergone some beautiful growth is now going to die by the grey lady.

[Lorizael]

Spoiler:

i dunno. she spends all of her time playing at being a manipulative shrew, and she's not very good at it. it was nice to see her get some kind of comeuppance at the end of the one book, but i was super disappointed that what is presumably Gregor Clegane's shambling corpse swooped in to save her.

I was also pretty disappointed that Jamie, a character who had undergone some beautiful growth is now going to die by the grey lady.

Spoiler:

Her getting her comeuppance was rad, I agree. She's done some terrible things and there should be consequences for her actions. But she didn't do anything to deserve getting stuck with Robert, unless the correct punishment for consensual incest is rape and abuse.

[Elok]

Can you think of a good, morally redeeming reason for defenestrating a kid? Jaime does grow considerably, though

People keep talking about "moral complexity." Perhaps I don't understand what's meant by that; I take it to mean actions which are good from one perspective, but bad from another, or else doing cruel things for ultimately good reasons, or good things for perverse reasons. For example, the fat kid. If his dad had sent him to the wall to toughen him up, because he'd have to inherit the throne and a fat weakling lord would mean civil war, that would be what I'd call morally complex. It puts the kid through hell, but in the name of some sincerely perceived greater good. Instead, his dad is just a dick. The kid poses no political or other threat, but he's ashamed of him for being a fatty fat fatpants, so it's either exile or his own dad hides his frickin' body in the woods. WTF? I get the feeling GRRM simply can't stand for the narrative to be pleasant for too long, so he sticks in something barbaric at fixed intervals. This isn't 'realistic,' it's just [movieannouncervoice]IN A WORLD . . . WHERE EVERY THIRD PERSON IS A SOCIOPATH FOR NO APPARENT REASON . . .[/MAV]

[kentonio]

Or to look at it another way, his father gives him endless opportunities to not be a soft, fat waste of human skin, but he continues to show none of the talents required to survive as a lord and by extension keep the family and the families dependants safe in a world where as you've seen weakness usually leads to exploitation and death (as it did in real medieval times). Forced to choose between his son and the potential destruction of his entire family line, the father gives his son a way to survive and perhaps even prosper by being placed in an environment where he will be forced to toughen up or die.

Or maybe his dad is just a dick.

[Lorizael]

The moral complexity that I see in ASOIAF (which kind of mirrors kentonio's point) is the choice between principles and pragmatism in a terrible world. If you keep reading, you will see this a lot in Dany's story. A lot of the awfulness we see serves to establish the horrible background against which these ethical choices must be made.

[Hauldren Collider]

This isn't 'realistic,' it's just [movieannouncervoice]IN A WORLD . . . WHERE EVERY THIRD PERSON IS A SOCIOPATH FOR NO APPARENT REASON . . .[/MAV]

Agreed.

[Hauldren Collider]

Or to look at it another way, his father gives him endless opportunities to not be a soft, fat waste of human skin, but he continues to show none of the talents required to survive as a lord and by extension keep the family and the families dependants safe in a world where as you've seen weakness usually leads to exploitation and death (as it did in real medieval times). Forced to choose between his son and the potential destruction of his entire family line, the father gives his son a way to survive and perhaps even prosper by being placed in an environment where he will be forced to toughen up or die.

Or maybe his dad is just a dick.

Oh please, as if there weren't **** tons of fat cowardly lords who did just fine. The song of ice and fire world really doesn't resemble feudal society in any place at any time.

[kentonio]

Oh please, as if there weren't **** tons of fat cowardly lords who did just fine.

Such as?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The moral complexity that I see in ASOIAF (which kind of mirrors kentonio's point) is the choice between principles and pragmatism in a terrible world. If you keep reading, you will see this a lot in Dany's story. A lot of the awfulness we see serves to establish the horrible background against which these ethical choices must be made.

Yep. This rears its head big time in the first book.

And of course these are horrible people that do horrible things. GRRM based a lot of the background ideas on the War of the Roses, where just about everyone was horrible and looking out for their own status.

And, glimmers of hope arise from a number of areas. Obviously, as there would be people who root for certain folks so much in the books or show. If it was just all depressing and horror, no one would watch the show (there is more tolerance for that in books - aka, "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy which is a masterpiece).

[N35t0r]

HowTF do you enjoy it? I mean, it's readable, but every twenty pages something horrible happens. Every single character is a reprehensible scheming ****head, except for the Starks who are sort of stoically dour, probably because they realize their world is a pit for fighting dogs and they can't get out. I guess that makes them the moral center, insofar as half of them hate each other but they don't do anything overtly antisocial about it?

You mean unlike the nobility during the middle ages, which were all love and joy and sleepovers?