what happened to the großrossiya thread

[I AM MOBIUS]

I imagine Putin merely sees himself as defending himself from encroaching western imperialism...

Frankly, from his POV I don't really blame him either.

As for escalation, that's only going to make things massively worse. Say the US does decide to arm Ukraine? Unless they were instantly dropped into the frontlines (impossible), what's to stop Russia (sorry, the separatists) going full tilt and launching a massive land grab before those systems are deployed? Not to mention all the other **** as well...

As usual, the chickenhawks want to start another cold war or WWIII or something. Yes he is a bully and yes the leadership of the separatists are two-faced scumbags, but arming the Ukraine would give Putin the very pretext he needs to officially intervene militarily - and if that happened, you can guarantee that it won't go well for the Ukrainians - US arms or not!

[Sava]

Maybe in the long run but sure as **** not now that Russia has invaded as that would only reward aggression.

Self-determination of peoples only matters if they are freedomy.

Gee Oerdin. Combined with your Islamphobia and casual racism, I really think you are in the wrong political camp.

[C0ckney]

Maybe in the long run but sure as **** not now that Russia has invaded as that would only reward aggression.

so your argument isn't really based on 'self-determination' then, but rather on whether you think certain people deserve self-determination. i mean that's perfectly understandable, but at least be honest about it.

[N35t0r]

Indeed. The US has long stood up for the self determination of peoples, it was one of President Wilson's 14 points in WW1, so it would be hypocritical to abandon the Ukrainians in their hour of need, when an aggressive foreign dictatorship had imperialist designs on their country.

Yeah, sorry, I stopped reading the thread at this point due to the laugher fit.

[I AM MOBIUS]

so your argument isn't really based on 'self-determination' then, but rather on whether you think certain people deserve self-determination. i mean that's perfectly understandable, but at least be honest about it.

Well, at least Putin agrees with Oerdin.

[ricketyclik]

...when are we going to stand up for our principles?

When there's oil to be controlled?

[Jon Miller]

While I am against intervening in Ukraine, I would be more in favor to it if the intervention was led by Europe. If Europe isn't interested, then we should even be less interested.

JM

[Sava]

While I am against intervening in Ukraine, I would be more in favor to it if the intervention was led by Europe. If Europe isn't interested, then we should even be less interested.

JM

exactly, it's their backyard

they buy gas from Russia (not everyone, and some more than others)

though, maybe it's sort of like good cop bad cop... and they want america to do the heavy lifting as well

[PLATO]

There are other costs that Russia can pay other than having western arms on their boarder that would be more advantageous in the long run. The simple fact is that there is not a "win" scenario for the west in Eastern Ukraine by force of arms. Best case is a stable cease fire line and a large step back from war. Over time, if the Ukrainians are really about freedom, equal rights, and democracy, things will change in their favor. Number one issue for them is to build an economy and a country that people in the east and Crimea would want to be a part of. There is no short term answer to the problem given the Russian position. Escalating an already bad military situation will not achieve anything other than a higher order conflict or outright Russian domination of all of Ukraine...unless, of course we want an all out war with the Russians .

The west needs to look at this as a 12 round fight. The Russians get round 1, but in the end it is a winnable fight. Just not militarily.

[Sava]

PLATO sighting

[I AM MOBIUS]

Yet more PLATO words of wisdom!

[Dinner]

Well, word is this morning that Putin is massing an invasion force once again. Supposedly, it is broken into two groups to prepare a classic pincers movement invasion. The fighting flared up again a few weeks ago entirely because of Putin's orders. As soon as he had reinforced his troops and amassed supplies he restarted the fighting without living up to a single one of his obligations in the Minsk agreement. Agreements signed by Putin aren't worth the paper they are written on and only a fool believe Putin will be stopped just by words or sanctions.

[Jon Miller]

Why is it our (sole) responsibility to stop Putin?

Putin isn't our direct enemy. Ukraine isn't our direct ally. If our allies who are neighbors to Ukraine and had almost invited it into their exclusive club (which are closer allies than our allies are with us) don't care, why should we?

JM

[Sava]

JM

Occupying Ukraine is also simply not feasible for Russia. If you ask me, Putin's trying to goad the US into a fight in order to bleed us.

Sadly, idiots seem willing to play right into his hands.

[N35t0r]

To bleed you and also to generate a new wave of support for him domestically.