what happened to the großrossiya thread

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW I remember colon accusing me for using the word "geopolitical" because it doesn't fit into his tiny neoliberal worldview.
Welll boohoo, it's used even by ex upper class polish (probably read fascist) US strategy advisors.

But when we use it in poly, it's a no, no and puts in question our credibility.

One more reason why neoliberalism (and its affected population) doesn't know which way the goat farts.-

[PLATO]

Of course it could just be that most of the Ukrainians got fed up with their corrupt puppet President and were trying to opt for a better life with the west. I guess NATO ordered Russian tanks across the boarder

[Bereta_Eder]

There's no question Ukraine was suffering under corruption but that's hardly the issue.
Besides you can't light a fire without a match.
Now they are suffering 10 times more. As many martyric people have done before them, unfortunately.

[PLATO]

There's no question Ukraine was suffering under corruption but that's hardly the issue.

I think that was the issue and why the citizens took to the street. They were fed up with the corruption and saw the EU deal as a way to a better life. Russia pulled the rug out from under it with strong arm tactics and gas bribery to their puppet.

Besides you can't light a fire without a match.

In spite of all the propaganda flying around from Russia's spin machine...Corruption and the President being a Russian puppet were the issue. The EU deal falling through was the match. Everything you are hearing about the all powerful CIA is a crock. As an American, I sure as hell wish they had that power. It is pretty obvious to anyone not so absorbed in Russian anti-U.S. propaganda that they don't.

Now they are suffering 10 times more. As many martyric people have done before them, unfortunately.

If Russia would get the hell out, then their situation would start to improve. As it is, how could things be better when Russian artillery is raining down on your cities every day and an important part of your country has been summarily annexed. Of course they are suffering and no one need look further than the god-emperor Putin to find out why.

[Bereta_Eder]

Your view is simplistic, no offense. And dare I say, pure. It has its merits but in no way gives the larger picture.

[PLATO]

Your view is simplistic, no offense. And dare I say, pure. It has its merits but in no way gives the larger picture.

It is simplistic. I agree. Certainly there were other pressures at work, but to say that NATO and the CIA engineered the fall of the Ukrainian government is a pretty far stretch. To say that Russia's de facto invasion of Ukraine has caused misery among the people isn't.

Do I believe that a western leaning government in Kiev would suddenly end the corruption and raise the standard of living for Ukrainians? Of course not. I do believe that it is a step in the right direction.

Do I believe that NATO kept its word to the Russians on expansion? Obviously, they didn't. However, to say that I believe that NATO had or has military plans against Russia would be the furthest thing from the truth.

Do I believe that the Russian speaking population had anything to worry about due to the government change? That's a tough one. Ultimately, I believe they would have suffered less than they have by being in the middle of a war. I also believe that given a little time and combined western and Russian political pressure that any of that nonsense would have stopped pretty quickly.

Do I think Russia was worried about its "sphere of influence"? Yep...I do. I also believe that is way out dated thinking. Does the U.S. get pissed of to the point of military action when China buys oil leases offshore from the U.S.? When China gets the contract to run the Panama Canal? Or any other of a myriad of things that European or Asian powers are doing in the U.S. "sphere of influence"? Nope. It is a globalized world and nearly everyone recognizes it except for Russia. They continue to exercise 1950's era politics with 21st century technology and weapons.

Russia has some of the greatest potential of any nation on Earth. They have unbelievable natural resources...a history of great minds...a near perfect location as a bridge between Europe and Asia. They have no reason to act like they do. The justification of paranoia is no substitute for being an active and contributing part of the world community. That is where they belong. The only assumption that one can make from their actions is that they want to take what they are unwilling to earn. Putin has created a powerful and corrupt machine to serve his personal interests and in the long run he is setting Russia back 75 years.

No one wants this...except Putin.

So...yes. What I said was simplistic, but it cuts to the center of the current problem.

[Dinner]

Russia has been continuing it's slow motion attack on the Ukraine.

[PLATO]

Russia has been continuing it's slow motion attack on the Ukraine.

It is a slow attack based, I am sure, on what political fallout that they predict. First Debaltseve and now on to Maryinka. One step at a time followed by cool downs and false agreements, but always moving forward.

[Bereta_Eder]

This can be turned around and be claimed that NATO moves always forward with cool downs and false agreements (something in which you alluded to).
The truth is somewhere in between.
The tragedy is that the wellbeing of the ukranian people is probably of the least concern to those invloved in this power struggle.

Note that a majority of Bulgarian people now firmly believe that the Soviet system was better for them than what there is in place now.

It's about free people making free choices, with respect and trying to minimize bloodsheds.

I still believe though that a misguided person is slightly less guilty than a purposeful one, especially if his heart is in the right place.

[PLATO]

This can be turned around and be claimed that NATO moves always forward with cool downs and false agreements (something in which you alluded to).
The truth is somewhere in between.

Perhaps, but the NATO moves are political and not military. There is a significant difference between the two.

The tragedy is that the wellbeing of the ukranian people is probably of the least concern to those invloved in this power struggle.

Ultimately, the wellbeing of the Ukrainian people will be their deciding factor on east or west. It would be a great outcome if they could become a bridge between east and west, but Russian military activity dims this hope significantly.

Note that a majority of Bulgarian people now firmly believe that the Soviet system was better for them than what there is in place now.

There is room for more than one system in the world...as long as human rights are respected.

It's about free people making free choices, with respect and trying to minimize bloodsheds.

Indeed, but small groups choosing their own fate leads to anarchy. People should be free to choose within their national frameworks on their governments. Ukraine did this with the overthrow of the corrupt puppet President. The groups in the Donbass should act within the Ukrainian framework. Instead, bolstered by Russian political and military backing, they are creating anarchy and bloodshed. Without Russian interference, this situation would probably be stabilizing by now.

I still believe though that a misguided person is slightly less guilty than a purposeful one, especially if his heart is in the right place.

Is this a reference to Putin? Do you truly believe his heart is in the right place and that this is not just a power/land grab? I just can't buy that based on what I see of his actions.

[Dinner]

The irony being that the Ukraine desperately wanted in both the EU and NATO out of fears Russia would try to forcibly dominate them again. Which is exactly what happened.

Russia is like an abusive former partner who won't go away even after the divorce. He thinks if he just beats her more she will come back when reality it just drives her away with more determination.

I am sure we will hear more crying out of Putin about how nobody loves him and it is all the CIA's fault.

[Dinner]

This Russian girl is very much like Russia itself. It is trying so hard, it is looking good, but inevitably it ends up crapping itself.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4eANZZGjke8

[Bereta_Eder]

Is this a reference to Putin? Do you truly believe his heart is in the right place and that this is not just a power/land grab? I just can't buy that based on what I see of his actions.

No it wasn't about putin. It was about you...

[Ellestar]

I think that was the issue and why the citizens took to the street. They were fed up with the corruption and saw the EU deal as a way to a better life. Russia pulled the rug out from under it with strong arm tactics and gas bribery to their puppet.

Russia pulled a rug out from under illegetimate pro-Nazi anti-Russian government, not from under Ukraine.

In spite of all the propaganda flying around from Russia's spin machine...Corruption and the President being a Russian puppet were the issue. The EU deal falling through was the match. Everything you are hearing about the all powerful CIA is a crock. As an American, I sure as hell wish they had that power. It is pretty obvious to anyone not so absorbed in Russian anti-U.S. propaganda that they don't.

Actually, president wasn't a Russian puppet. He declined EU deal because it would have destroyed Ukrainian industry, exactly the way it did so in Baltics, Western Europe countries etc. No sane person can argue that it would have not - there are just too many practical examples of the thing, INCLUDING current Ukraine where exactly that happened (export to EU was reduced by 33% IIRC after a deal in just a year).

If Russia would get the hell out, then their situation would start to improve. As it is, how could things be better when Russian artillery is raining down on your cities every day and an important part of your country has been summarily annexed. Of course they are suffering and no one need look further than the god-emperor Putin to find out why.

Actually, it's Ukrainian artillery that is raining down on Ukrainian cities every day despite a cease-fire agreement. Before you start to demand something from Russia, you need to accept realilty as it is.

Overall, your post is a perfect example of a crude reality-denying Western propaganda.

[PLATO]

Ellestar...your lies and obvious indoctrination to the false propaganda of Putin is really tiresome.

Sorry...but it is just sad to continue to watch.