what happened to the großrossiya thread

[C0ckney]

No.
1. Read the source.
2. Stop generalizing.

It's actually science, not some relativistic generalization of stereotypes.

yes. i read the source. i don't think you understand what science is.

[binTravkin]

Using ad hominem just shows you have a problem.

I will use quote by Garry Kasparov, the famous mathematician and Russian dissident, to illustrate the source of problem in your assessment:

I lived half my life in USSR & more under Putin. If you think the free world is an illusion you are likely one of the lucky ones born there.

People in the West tend to think things are bad just because they haven't really seen bad.
Also, generalization and usage of stereotypes to make judgments does not help.

[C0ckney]

bintravkin: *posts a list from a random website
cockney: actually you know a lot of those could be applied to western countries
bintravkin: how dare you argue with my science
cockney: that's not science
bintravkin: you ad hominemed me! that's a fallacy! now read my appeal to authority

[binTravkin]

You keep misrepresenting stuff.
1. Not random. Strawman.
2. Yes. But much less than you applied. Read the source for details.
3. Not MY science. Strawman.
4. Yes it is. Your disagreement does not disqualify studies of the subject.
5. I presented an argument. I could do it without Kasparov, he just put it well. You have no counter-argument, so you strawman it into a appeal to authority.

Why are you even trying to derail this if your initial post basically says the same as I did - "US can be argued to exhibit some of the signs of fascism".
That is, if we clear out the stuff which is questionable and only appears in your argument because your relative position on it is so much higher than the author's or mine.

You can probably raise the standard to the point half of the world is fascist, but then we can just move on because in such a relativistic approach it's not possible to argue anything.

There are other definitions/signs of fascism as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

[C0ckney]

it looks like we can add strawman to the list of words you don't understand; my paraphrase was accurate enough for its purpose, namely ridiculing your so-called argument. here's a tip, talking down to people and then screaming "fallacy!" (incorrectly) while actually engaging fallacies yourself is not a good strategy.

my argument is very simple. a lot of the things on that list can be applied to western countries, and not just the US, as you affirm. you may disagree, everyone has a different view after all. but your view, given while quivering inside your bunker, is hard to take seriously.

[binTravkin]

my argument is very simple. a lot of the things on that list can be applied to western countries, and not just the US, as you affirm. you may disagree, everyone has a different view after all.

Let's take just a few examples.

Control of the mass media.

Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

In which Western country is this true?
Having some media that fit this description while others don't, does not qualify.
AFAIK all Western countries have at least some mass media of significance that is critical of the government.


Rampant corruption.
In Russia (and Ukraine) you have to bribe people to let do basic things like to allow to build a house.
Basically almost any paperwork includes bribes.
Do you have that in US or Western countries?


Cronyism.
In Russia 110 people own 1/3 of assets. Most of them after having been given state assets by the regime.
Do you have that in US or Western countries?


Labor Power is Suppressed.

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

This is not the case in Latvia as you are claiming, and generally in EU.
Is this the case in US? AFAIK, no.


Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Which Western countries have this?
And not just like a separate instance, but regular, systematic.

but your view, given while quivering inside your bunker, is hard to take seriously.

Your view, given while living in relative prosperity, freedom and security is hard to take seriously.

[Ellestar]

Russia scores 14/14, therefore it's a fascist regime.
Since Russia is ruled by a de facto dictator, it's a fascist dictatorship.

Binary scoring is retarded in this case because characteristics themselves are not binary.

Fascism or Nazism are not just "tags" you can assign to people or groups randomly.
There are certain signs that either qualify or disqualify a group of people as belonging to those ideologies.
I already posted the signs of fascism which have been determined by SCHOLARS who have been studying fascist regimes and I repost them here again:

Source: http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

It's not scholarS, it's one unknown guy, but let's see anyway...

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Actually, it started as a counter-tactics after MULTIPLE western-funded coups (called "orange revolutions" by western propaganda) on our borders, so not to allow it within our country. Given that we're obviously under ideologic attack, it makes sense to fight back.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Yeah, yeah, Patriot Act in USA, IIRC it's against their constitution, right? How about Guantamao? How about all these invasions in foreign countries?

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - Well, Russia is obvious enemy/scrapegoat both in western press and on this forum, and NATO unifies you, so there.

4. Supremacy of the Military - USA military budget is more than a military budget of the everyone else entire world, combined. Total NATO military budget is even bigger.

5. Rampant Sexism - That's actually cultual differencies, existence of this characteristics in this list only proves that your "scholar" is incompetent.

6. Controlled Mass Media - All most important western mass media is owned and controlled by corporations, they're not independent entities.

7. Obsession with National Security - Patriot Act, Guantamao, use of the army (national guard) in cities, biggest number of prisoners per 1000 population is in USA etc.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Well, most Western countries are Catholic or Protestant. Russia is mostly atheist (communist legacy), with at least two major religions - Christianity and Islam.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - yup. Even lobbying (a cute word for a bribery of politicians by corporations) is legal in the West.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - and you tell THAT to one of a former USSR countries? ROFLMAO. You're seriously sick, man. We even have an alive and kicking Communist party, unlike most countries in the West.
In comparision, many western countries actually went as far as to ban communist parties, and call it "democracy".

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - That's probably even more subjective than (5), and i have no idea how do you interpret it that it actually happens in Russia...

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - not sure what's a significant difference between this and (7). At least my responce to (7) fits this one too.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - That's nice but in USA and other westernt countries entire government and democracy is stolen by capitalists, not just money. You vote for a talking heads, and talking heads don't even bother doing what a population wants them to do - that's why your western leaders have a sub-30% support most of the time. Enjoy your talking heads, fools.

14. Fraudulent Elections - surprisingly, exit polls and independent opinion reports confirm that our leadership is indeed very popular. That's something that can't be told about about western leadership, usually the opposite is true. So a smart man will ask a question, which elections are fraudulent, given the obvious facts?

So, where exactly Russia beats USA in particular and West in general in this "Nazi rating"?

(1) is a special case, it's a counter-offensive in a propaganda front where we were clearly losing.

We're less Nazi in (2),

We're less Nazi by far in (4), (8), (9), (10), (12)

I would say (3), (6), (7), (13), (14) is about equal. (13) only because we have more corruption but our cronyism is very new and light compared to clans and families of the West.

(11) i have no idea how to rate it... USSR would have had both high and low score, depending on interpretation (because it was actually almost keeping up with entire West in science, just barely behind, with a significantly lower total resources and population, so it can't be rated as "hostile to higher education" etc). No idea why Russia will be even considered here.

Ok, more Nazi in (5), but once again, that's cultural differencies. There are a lot of countries in the world that are even more extreme in this case. We're not anything special, we're just not as modern as western countries. We're lagging by how much? About 50 years at worst? That's not a big difference. I'm not sure who gave you retarded idea that we must be exactly the same as you. Forget it, we're different.

So, idk how you calculated that Russia is more Nazi than the West. I got the opposite results.

[Ellestar]

By the way, on a wiki there is a huge list of different definitions of fascism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
So that proves that any list like that is 100% subjective.

[Sava]

Fascism or Nazism are not just "tags" you can assign to people or groups randomly.
There are certain signs that either qualify or disqualify a group of people as belonging to those ideologies.
I already posted the signs of fascism which have been determined by scholars who have been studying fascist regimes and I repost them here again:

Source: http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Russia scores 14/14, therefore it's a fascist regime.
Since Russia is ruled by a de facto dictator, it's a fascist dictatorship.

Ukraine scores 4/14 on this list - 1., 9., 10., 13.

Latvia scores 0/14 on this list. Even if we accept your criticisms (1.,2.), Latvia still scores only 2/14 which means it doesn't even qualify for Fascism, let alone Nazism.

On the "historical revisionism".
Ever wondered why almost the entire world's view on history and current events differ from the Kremlin official line?
Ever wondered why is it so that while you recognize that politicians often lie or do not tell all the truth, Russian ones appear to never lie?

That's a good list. I'd agree with all but "rampant sexism" being a key feature of a fascist state.

[Sava]

No.
1. Read the source.
2. Stop generalizing.

It's actually science, not some relativistic generalization of stereotypes.

No. There is no science involved here.

[C0ckney]

it seems that most of your points are about comparing russia to the west. saying russia is worse than western countries is true but has nothing to do with the points i've made; i didn't mention russia once.

Let's take just a few examples.

Control of the mass media.

In which Western country is this true?
Having some media that fit this description while others don't, does not qualify.
AFAIK all Western countries have at least some mass media of significance that is critical of the government.

most western countries have most of their media owned a by tiny group of people. these people tend to have a certain viewpoints, or rather a narrow range of 'acceptable' viewpoints. taking a broader view, it's not governments that matter, but rather the whole machinery of the state. the red party governing for 5 years and then the blue party governing for years makes no difference to that. they just swap over giving the people the illusion of choice, while the social and economic facts remain unchanged.

Rampant corruption.
In Russia (and Ukraine) you have to bribe people to let do basic things like to allow to build a house.
Basically almost any paperwork includes bribes.
Do you have that in US or Western countries?

in many western countries for example in southern or eastern europe, corruption is a fact of life. the same in south america etc.

Cronyism.
In Russia 110 people own 1/3 of assets. Most of them after having been given state assets by the regime.
Do you have that in US or Western countries?

that's not the comparison. the fact is that in many western countries a very small number of people control a very large proportion of the wealth and with it control the political processes, the media etc.

it's also not what cronyism is. if you want to find example of that, of the elite perpetuating their control, then it's enough to open your eyes.

Labor Power is Suppressed.

This is not the case in Latvia as you are claiming, and generally in EU.
Is this the case in US? AFAIK, no.

of course it is. there are a huge number of laws that curtail strikes, outlaw secondary picketing, impose all sorts of conditions on unions, set minimum service levels or prohibit strikes in 'key sectors'. and even if one agrees with these laws, thinks them necessary etc., it's impossible to deny they suppress labour power.

Fraudulent Elections

Which Western countries have this?
And not just like a separate instance, but regular, systematic.

i would say that representative democracy is inherently fraudulent and merely gives the illusion of choice. a narrow range of political parties that all believe essentially the same thing, backed up by a media that helps to frame the narrative, is meaningless. as the saying goes, if voting changed anything, it would be outlawed.

even the pretence of democracy is sometimes dispensed with when the interests of capital are sufficiently threatened. see for example the events in italy and greece when bankers were appointed as leaders during the crisis.

Your view, given while living in relative prosperity, freedom and security is hard to take seriously.

well i live in rio de janeiro which is often said to be dangerous, more so that latvia i would say, but i do have the advantage of not being paranoid...

[onodera]

I will use quote by Garry Kasparov, the famous mathematician and Russian dissident, to illustrate the source of problem in your assessment:

I'll leave you to your mutual name calling and !!science!!, but I couldn't ignore that post. Mathematician?!

[Hauldren Collider]

I think he's just a chess player.

Otherwise I more or less agree with bintravkin, though I question the scientificness of any pursuit in sociology, including this.

[Bereta_Eder]

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrw3xzKbH3w

[Ellestar]

Picture of Stepan Bandera on a t-shirt and ukrainian children killed by his Ukrainian Insurgent Army.



Khatyn Massacre and Odessa Massacre



WW II and Donbass now