Exit Polls Suggest Syriza Has Won Greek Election

[Hauldren Collider]

Greece already is behaving like a startup. A startup is just a company that has never made any money...they're running of of debt that they persuade people to bankroll them with and there's only a small chance they'll ever be able to pay it back and pull a profit.

[Dinner]

when an economy shrinks by a quarter, poverty tends to rise.

And rather than making Greece a better place to do business so that the economy improves all they have done is make it worse.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Greece seems to be inexorably moving towards 'pulling and Iceland'.

I think that's the EU's (and the Rich's) biggest fear - the domino effect of more and more countries like Greece, Portugal etc suddenly wising up and flipping the finger like Iceland did.

That's the main problem 'The One Percent' have: The day the 99% suddenly realise they can turn around and tell them where to get stuffed, because frankly there's more of them and the alternative of austerity for the 99% is far worse anyway - and there won't be much the 1% can do about it anyway...

There's revolution in the air - it's definitely coming...

[pchang]

So, you are now lumping the northern half of the Euro block in the oppressor 1%? Ireland show what can happen when a government spends within their means. They emerged from austerity, paid their debts and are now growing in a sustainable manner.

Iceland defaulted and were forced to live within their means. They went through a period of forced austerity, paid some of their debts and are now growing in a sustainable manner (though more slowly than Ireland).

The rich people of Europe were affected the same by Ireland and Iceland. They weren't affected at all. The only real difference between the 2 is that some bankers in Iceland went to jail.

[C0ckney]

the people of iceland are much better off for having defaulted.

i must point out, and this is something many people miss about the european crisis, that each country must be analysed individually. greece's crisis is nothing like ireland's and comparing the two is unhelpful. in any case ireland would have been better off going the iceland route, allowing the banks to collapse and gaoling, and ruining those responsible. the people of ireland have paid a heavy price for the greed and stupidity of a small élite who have got away scot free.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Iceland's recovery had a bit more than that:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recovery-of-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html

Iceland's rapid return to health hinged on a series of measures that Nobel laureate Paul Krugman later referred to as "doing an Iceland." Krugman, an admirer of Iceland's dramatic comeback, has recommended a similar policy cocktail for other nations in crisis. The rules are as follows: Allow your ailing banks to collapse; devalue your currency if you have one of your own; introduce capital controls; and try to avoid paying back foreign debts.

[pchang]

That article was dated Jan. 10, 2014. Things are not as rosy in Iceland as that article would have you believe. Of the 3 banks created out of the failures of the old banks, 2 are majority foreign owned. Their unwillingness to lend and take risk has had a serious dampening effect on Iceland's growth. The homeowners who bought before the crash are still underwater (or just getting out from being underwater). Their loans were indexed to inflation and they now owe more than they originally borrowed.

[C0ckney]

considering that iceland's crisis was caused primarily by banks taking excessive risks it's hardly surprising that the new banks are being cautious.

[pchang]

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of overcorrecting.

[Fake Boris]

Middle class debt is the process by which empires and nations gradually turn oligarchic and corrupt.

Debt jubilees are common in history and typically result in a Golden Age for the nations involved. Leviticus left Hebrews with provisions regarding periodical debt cancellation. Democratic Athens and the resulting cultural golden age was born of a debt jubilee.

So what in essence did Solon do? The basic challenge was to relieve the near death grip that debt had on Athens.

In effect, Solon waved the social-health-restoring wand of the Jubilee: Poof, and crippling debts and mortgages were relieved or eliminated, and enslavement for debt was canceled and made illegal. Even people who had been taken as debt slaves to foreign places were freed. One other great chronic injustice was ended: the forced extraction by nobles of payment – in effect protection money – from small property owners.

Solon’s measures immediately transformed Athens from a scene of despair and hopelessness, personal enslavement and financial ruin, to the widespread euphoria of freedom and the optimism of a fresh debt-free start. (3)

On the other hand, middle class debt led to the collapse of the Roman and Byzantine empires. Social inequality breeds corruption, flattery, clientelism and nepotism, and thus, government ineptitude.

[Imran Siddiqui]

A stabilized economy is much better than a negative growth one. Second half 2014 GDP growth slowed, but they seemed to have righted the ship (so to speak) and can at least move forward.

Besides, it was YOU who said Iceland is "now growing in a sustainable manner".

[I AM MOBIUS]

The rich people of Europe were affected the same by Ireland and Iceland. They weren't affected at all.

Iceland seemed fine to me, seeing as I was there just the other week.

Also, the combined pop of Iceland and Ireland is ~6.7m.

Imagine if Greece, Portugal and Spain (combined pop: ~68.2m) went down the same route...? I imagine that would be enough to set off a global domino effect, given how precariously positioned and growth dependent the world's markets are...

The only real difference between the 2 is that some bankers in Iceland went to jail.

To me, that's a good start, some actual justice!

As far as I know, no one in the UK has even come close to jail despite ****ing our entire economy for the foreseeable future - how many in the US? Time for the peasants to start revolting, I say...

The global economy needs to be reset from an unsustainable growth based economy, so we might as well start now!

[pchang]

A stabilized economy is much better than a negative growth one. Second half 2014 GDP growth slowed, but they seemed to have righted the ship (so to speak) and can at least move forward.

Besides, it was YOU who said Iceland is "now growing in a sustainable manner".

You seemed to be implying that Iceland was doing better than Ireland. They are not.

[pchang]

Imagine if Greece, Portugal and Spain (combined pop: ~68.2m)

And the population of Germany is 80m and they are telling Merkel to hold firm. If you believe in Democracy, you have to accept when the majority votes against you.

[Jon Miller]

Usually you have some fudge for geography/culture/etc.

JM