Exit Polls Suggest Syriza Has Won Greek Election

[C0ckney]

While I agree the whole Greeks are lazy thing is silly, the hours worked figures are rather misleading. They're just total working hours divided by total employees, without taking part-time work in consideration. Part-time employment is far more prevalent in Germany than in Greece.

that's true enough i suppose (i should add that the emphasis on the graph isn't mine). the graph though does its job of demolishing the greeks are lazy myth very well.

[dannubis]

you know when i said the "various 'greeks are lazy, greeks are wasteful' myths that we see time and again" that wasn't a request to you to repost those self-same myths. it seems that you, in common with most americans, and in fact most people (though in this thread the americans are the worst offenders), are extremely poorly informed about what is happening in greece. i am sick of correcting idiots who can't be bothered to learn some basic facts on these issues, so instead of a long rebuttal of your absurd post i will simply post the following graphs:





(average retirement age - greece is EL)

1. The original dataproviders for these graphs are the national accounting agancies? If yes, then based on bitter experience I will take your graphs with a grain of salt.
2. I nowhere see a measure for productivity. You left those out on purpose?
3. How many of those hours are worked for a governemental support function?

Greeks are not lazy persons in se. However, their society is terribly inefficient and overcome with corruption and nepotism. And for that the Greeks are accountable.

[C0ckney]

1. the first graph comes from the OCED, the second is from eurostat. i'm not sure exactly where the original data comes from, but it's probably reasonable to assume a national source.

2. if you want to present some evidence for your contentions, then please don't let me stop you.

here are some productivity figures from eurostat, it appears that greek productivity is lower than the EU average, but higher than most of the 2004 entrants and portugal.

3. i have no idea; do you? what is a government support function (a civil servant, a policeman, a nurse, a dustman)? why do you feel this is important? if you want to present some evidence for your contentions, then please don't let me stop you.

[dannubis]

You are not really in the habit of getting critical questions do you ?

[Colonâ„¢]

Productivity also isn't relevant per se. What it's ultimately all about is that the Greek govt spent vastly more than it took in. You can perfectly well have twice the level of productivity with a govt that still overspends (though granted, it doesn't tend to happen to a ruinous extent). It makes far more sense to reproach the Greek for being unable of understanding that they have to live within their means and not expect others to pay for their expenses.

[Colonâ„¢]

Cockney, you may want default, but that's not what the Greek want:

New Greek PM Alexis Tsipras tells his first cabinet meeting his country will not default on its bailout debts, but will negotiate with creditors.

Negotiate with WHAT? Their god-given right to get money from others?

[Colonâ„¢]

Syriza's aims:

(BBC)

Actions on jobs and wages

Most eye-catching for Greeks is the promise of 300,000 new jobs in the private, public and social sectors, and a hefty increase in the minimum monthly wage - from €580 ($658; £433) to €751 ($853; £562). The new jobs would focus on the young unemployed - almost 50% of under-25s are out of work - and the long-term unemployed, especially those over 55.

Salaries and pensions plummeted in 2012 as Greek ministers tried to curb spending. Now Syriza aims to reverse many of those "injustices", bringing back the Christmas bonus pension, known as the 13th month, for pensioners receiving less than €700 ($795; £524) a month. Syriza says it will rebuild Greece with what it describes as four pillars:

For Syriza, 300,000 appears to be a magic number. They are promising 300,000 households under the poverty line up to 300 kWh of free electricity per month and food subsidies for the same number of families who have no income.

Tax on heating fuel will be scrapped.

Then there are plans for free medical care for those without jobs and medical insurance.

Scrapping of property tax

It is not just the poor who voted for Syriza but the middle classes as well. Property owners in Athens's leafy, northern suburbs were enticed with the promised abolition of a hated annual levy on private property.

Known as "Enfia", the tax was introduced in 2011 as an emergency measure but made permanent under the previous government.

Instead, there will be a tax on luxury homes and large second properties.

How to pay for it all? Debt write-off followed by more loans of course! It's only JUSTICE.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

here is their manifesto

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/01/28/greece-this-is-syrizas-new-government-plan-in-detail/

Write-off the greater part of public debt’s nominal value so that it becomes sustainable in the context of a «European Debt Conference». It happened for Germany in 1953. It can also happen for the South of Europe and Greece.
Include a «growth clause» in the repayment of the remaining part so that it is growth-financed and not budget-financed.
Include a significant grace period («moratorium») in debt servicing to save funds for growth.
Exclude public investment from the restrictions of the Stability and Growth Pact.
A «European New Deal» of public investment financed by the European Investment Bank.
Quantitative easing by the European Central Bank with direct purchases of sovereign bonds.
Finally, we declare once again that the issue of the Nazi Occupation forced loan from the Bank of Greece is open for us. Our partners know it. It will become the country’s official position from our first days in power.

[Sava]

yeah Germany has no moral standing here

I mean, I feel for you guys. You weren't responsible for your country's past actions. However, you still should be more of a supporter of Europe than moocher.

[Colonâ„¢]

Yeah, let's compare a state devastated by war, that also had to shoulder the debts of eastern territories it no longer got revenues from, including the indemnities from WWI, that had to house 10 million refugees and that was trying to shake off a Nazi past, with todays Greece.

A Syriza-led Greece that wants to receive NEW loans to pay for the kind of outlays that got in itself into this mess to begin with. Meaning we can have this kind of crap all over again in a decade or 2.

[Colonâ„¢]

It seems 21st century socialism is all about the Cuba-model: get another country to pay for it.

[Sava]

Yeah, let's compare

This isn't a comparison. I'm focusing on Germany. The other country in question happens to be Greece. It could just as easily be any other former non-Axis power.

[Sava]

It seems 21st century socialism is all about the Cuba-model: get another country to pay for it.

As opposed to everyone else paying for the lifestyles of 80 or so super rich people?

I got news for you. Everyone pays for someone else in some manner. You can whine all you want about not wanting to fulfill obligations, but it doesn't relieve anyone of the moral responsibility.

The same argument applies to paying taxes.

[C0ckney]

You are not really in the habit of getting critical questions do you ?

i answered your questions, but it seems you cannot answer mine.

[C0ckney]

Cockney, you may want default, but that's not what the Greek want:



Negotiate with WHAT? Their god-given right to get money from others?

sadly few people want is best for them (i.e. what i want).