Congratulations Anti-vaxers. Measles spreading in California

[Berzerker]

Berz thinks vaccines and antibiotics work on the same principles. What a dolt.

What principles?

No.

Yes

No. Vaccines are specific to single organisms. Do you have any idea how many different species of bacteria and viruses you're exposed to over the course of your childhood? Do you know how many different species of bacteria and fungi live in your skin? Your colon? Do you have any idea how many viral genomes are currently attached to your own DNA? You have plenty of exposure to organisms which will stimulate your immune system. We don't vaccinate against them so vaccination has no effect on their role in the development of an individual's immune system.
There's a new polio-like enterovirus that afflicted some children in the US, not many, less than 100 I believe. There have been no deaths, the paresis is milder than polo, but so far only one kid has recovered fully. Polio is an enterovirus too, other enteroviruses cause "stomach flu". Since Polio is virtually not found in the US presumably this virus evolved from one of those causing a gastroenteritis syndrome. Polio vaccination had nothing to do with its evolution.

No what? Where'd I say vaccines are not specific? You've just claimed we have a new polio virus but that the polio vaccine had nothing to do with it's evolution. You dont know that nor do you know vaccinations have no effect on the evolution of bugs. We have plenty of exposure and vaccines spread it around even more "unnaturally". And one more thing, the polio vaccine is relatively new... If it has an effect on our long term immunity we probably wont see the evolution until later on.

[N35t0r]

1) There being significantly larger amounts of a specific virus or bacteria around doesn't decrease the chance of it mutating into something more dangerous. Quite the opposite in fact.

2) Vaccines don't work in parallel to immune systems, they 'exercise' them. What you're suggesting is akin to people having to run marathons at random throughout their lives, and claiming that having them run regularly to be in a good shape for them is bad.

[Berzerker]

1) There being significantly larger amounts of a specific virus or bacteria around doesn't decrease the chance of it mutating into something more dangerous. Quite the opposite in fact.

So the more we spread disease the more it mutates? Both Lori and I already said that, vaccinations spread bugs. Now it would interesting to see if vaccinations in childhood alter the immune system before the procreative years to create some immunity, but the fact susceptible people need boosters doesn't bode well for us.

2) Vaccines don't work in parallel to immune systems, they 'exercise' them. What you're suggesting is akin to people having to run marathons at random throughout their lives, and claiming that having them run regularly to be in a good shape for them is bad.

Running marathons doesn't turn your distant descendents into marathon runners nor does the need for a vaccine produce immune progeny. If your immune system needs practice its weaker than people who dont need practice.

[N35t0r]

vaccinations spread bugs.

No.

Now it would interesting to see if vaccinations in childhood alter the immune system before the procreative years to create some immunity, but the fact susceptible people need boosters doesn't bode well for us.

Vaccinations (sometimes) need bolstering because:
1) The immune system naturally 'forgets' about some pathogens if it doesn't encounter them very often. This happens with non-vaccine immune responses as well.
2)Most modern vacines aren't actually dead/weakened versions of the disease, but engineered samples made to create a similar immune response. While this is much safer as there is no risk of accidentally catching the disease, it does mean that the memory effect (with respect to the response towards the original disease) wanes faster.

Running marathons doesn't turn your distant descendents into marathon runners nor does the need for a vaccine produce immune progeny. If your immune system needs practice its weaker than people who dont need practice.

It does if those unable to finish the marathon die.

ALL immune systems need practice. Seriously. Go read up on how immune systems work.

[Sava]

Go read up on how immune systems work.

Trolling aside. Seems like a lot of Poly "debates" could be cleared up if people bothered to do some reading and learn about things.

[Dinner]

Berz, just stop, man. Stop digging deeper.

[Guynemer]

Reading this thread has given me a stroke.

I have a stroke now.

I smell almonds, and there are no almonds here.

[Berzerker]

No.

Yes.

Vaccinations (sometimes) need bolstering

Dont you mean immune systems?

1) The immune system naturally 'forgets' about some pathogens if it doesn't encounter them very often. This happens with non-vaccine immune responses as well.

How often do the descendents of plague survivors encounter the plague? Aint nothing natural about vaccines, they're an artificial means of bolstering weak immune systems.

2)Most modern vacines aren't actually dead/weakened versions of the disease, but engineered samples made to create a similar immune response. While this is much safer as there is no risk of accidentally catching the disease, it does mean that the memory effect (with respect to the response towards the original disease) wanes faster.

Engineered from what? So immune systems in need of bolstering need it more often? How does that produce immune offspring?

It does if those unable to finish the marathon die.

Dying during a marathon turns other people into marathon runners?

ALL immune systems need practice.

No they dont, some people are more immune to bugs because their ancestors survived them long ago.

[Dinner]

He didn't take my advice to just stop digging deeper.

[Aeson]

Reading this thread has given me a stroke.

I have a stroke now.

I smell almonds, and there are no almonds here.

You heard it here first! DOCTOR claims something about VACCINATIONS gave him a STROKE!

[N35t0r]

How often do the descendents of plague survivors encounter the plague?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics ?

Engineered from what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Types

So immune systems in need of bolstering need it more often?

No, all immune systems need it. It is just better to achieve the same goal without causing severe harm to your organism.

How does that produce immune offspring?

It doesn't, just like resisting varicella, measles, smallpox or a long long list of similar diseases doesn't confer genetic immunity either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_immune_system

Dying during a marathon turns other people into marathon runners?

Yeah, in the same way that dying from smallpox made other people better at surviving smallpox.

No they dont, some people are more immune to bugs because their ancestors survived them long ago.

Which is why pretty much all diseases for which there are vaccination campaigns used to cause thousands of deaths and disabilities before the vaccines were introduced, despite having been around and affecting human beings for thousands of years.
This is also very patently false, and a large reason why breastfeeding is highly encouraged: babies acquire a lot of antibodies from their mothers' milk, which makes babies that do breastfeed highly less likely to suffer from life-threatening infections early in their lives. Also why children raised in varied environments are generally healthier than children raised in isolated communities without much exposure to the outside world.

[Lorizael]

This is also very patently false, and a large reason why breastfeeding is highly encouraged: babies acquire a lot of antibodies from their mothers' milk, which makes babies that do breastfeed highly less likely to suffer from life-threatening infections early in their lives.

But what if we run out of breasts?

[N35t0r]

But what if we run out of breasts?

The horror!

[Sava]

But what if we run out of breasts?

there'd be a rise in armpit and back-of-the-knee fucking

[regexcellent]

But what if we run out of breasts?

I wouldn't want to keep on living in a world like that.