UK General Election thread

[I AM MOBIUS]

No, that's the left wing definition of a conservative. Wanting to hear societal changes properly thought out before they are enacted, and believing that change for the sake of change isn't always a positive is conservatism. Produce a good plan with tangible benefits and (UK) conservatives can get behind all sorts of huge social changes.

No, that is the conservatives. A self-serving party with only the interests of the rich to heart. Wake up - open your eyes!

You're clearly so far removed from reality that I'm going to deal with each part of why you're so ****ing wrong about your beloved conservative party, step by step.

Let's start with the fact that conservatives are, by definition, instinctively homophobic:

What's your point? Is it supposed to be a surprise that lots of conservatives were against gay marriage? Yet the party supported it anyway.

TWO THIRDS OF TORY MPS THREATENED TO EXPRESSLY VOTE AGAINST THE WISHES OF THEIR LEADER!!!

As it was almost half of conservative MPs openly revolted against the government: Gay marriage Bill passes Commons despite Tory opposition

Conservative party ripped apart by gay marriage vote

Kindly read the articles and please tell me what part of them you don't understand - also note I picked articles from the Telegraph.

They didn't willingly support it whatsoever - does it not offend you that half (at least!) of all conservative MPs are openly homophobic...? The rest probably claim that 'some of their friends are gay'. Open your eyes and stop burying your head in the sand...

Cameron's a politician? Surely not..

Indeed, fair play to him, but it also means I think he is a total c*nt because he's only looking out for himself at the end of the day and backing whichever way the wind is blowing at any given day - the Tony Blair of the tories...

Telegraph: Nearly 70 per cent of black voters polled said they believed Mr Cameron’s drive to introduce homosexual marriages was “more about making the Conservative Party look trendy and modern” than his personal convictions.

He realises he needs to modernise the tories in the same way Blair modernised Labour, hence now being able to claim that a coalition involving the conservatives enacted gay marriage...

Bollocks. The Tory party was intrinsically homophobic at the time when the UK was intrinsically homophobic. Times change.

Indeed. The tories are still intrinsically homophobic, when the rest of the country has moved on - see above!

It is a known fact that the tories are the most homophobic major party in the UK, just deal with it.

Once you admit that, we can deal with your other egregiously misinformed positions about your beloved party...

[I AM MOBIUS]

Blow for Cameron as 128 Tory MPs vote against gay marriage - Tory opponents of the bill outnumber supporters as just 117 Conservative MPs vote in favour.

117 to 128

Here we are, Mr Revisionist, head-in-the-sand-man...

The Lib Dems have similarly declared that they are "proud to be delivering" equal marriage, but the Conservatives, perhaps fearful of provoking further grassroots anger, are silent.

If you can be that staggeringly wrong about tory support for gay marriage, one wonders about how wrong you are on everything else...?

I look forward to your reply defending the homophobic party.

[kentonio]

No, that is the conservatives. A self-serving party with only the interests of the rich to heart. Wake up - open your eyes!

You're clearly so far removed from reality that I'm going to deal with each part of why you're so ****ing wrong about your beloved conservative party, step by step.

Let me guess, you're going to be open-minded and unbiased too while doing it?

Let's start with the fact that conservatives are, by definition, instinctively homophobic:

I think you need to learn what the word definition means.

TWO THIRDS OF TORY MPS THREATENED TO EXPRESSLY VOTE AGAINST THE WISHES OF THEIR LEADER!!!

As it was almost half of conservative MPs openly revolted against the government: Gay marriage Bill passes Commons despite Tory opposition

Conservative party ripped apart by gay marriage vote

Kindly read the articles and please tell me what part of them you don't understand - also note I picked articles from the Telegraph.

And yet it was passed by a conservative leader of a conservative majority coalition government. Strange that..

They didn't willingly support it whatsoever - does it not offend you that half (at least!) of all conservative MPs are openly homophobic...? The rest probably claim that 'some of their friends are gay'. Open your eyes and stop burying your head in the sand...

I disagree with lots of Tory MP's on lots of things. Same as I disagree with lots of Labour MP's on lots of things. If they had actually managed to stop gay marriage being passed then I'd probably be a lot more angry about it, but they didn't.

Indeed, fair play to him, but it also means I think he is a total c*nt because he's only looking out for himself at the end of the day and backing whichever way the wind is blowing at any given day - the Tony Blair of the tories...

Of course he's a total ****, but you've picked the one reason that could apply to pretty much any politician in history. If you want something fairly unique to a leader in modern times, why not just rage about the fact he's totally out of touch with modern British people and has filled his cabinet with people from the same hugely privileged social group?

He realises he needs to modernise the tories in the same way Blair modernised Labour, hence now being able to claim that a coalition involving the conservatives enacted gay marriage...

Erm, why would you pull out a statistic about what black voters thought about the Tory position on homosexuality? That's very odd.

Indeed. The tories are still intrinsically homophobic, when the rest of the country has moved on - see above!

Ok, you also need to learn what the word 'intrinsically' means.

It is a known fact that the tories are the most homophobic major party in the UK, just deal with it.

UKIP are the most homophobic major party in the UK

Once you admit that, we can deal with your other egregiously misinformed positions about your beloved party...

Why would I admit something you've basically invented? You do understand that just repeating something over and over doesn't actually make it true right? If you'd said something like 'The Tory party was historically far more homophobic than the country in general' or even 'Tory MP's are far more statistically homophobic than those of other parties' then there'd be nothing to argue about. But trying to claim its some intrinsic part of the party is just moronic. The Tory party has a lot of old voters who are demographically far more likely to be homophobic and racist, and elect MP's who pander to that. The same way the 30% of Labour MP's who were against probably represent very working class areas where sexual diversity hasn't taken hold as much.

[kentonio]

Here we are, Mr Revisionist, head-in-the-sand-man...



If you can be that staggeringly wrong about tory support for gay marriage, one wonders about how wrong you are on everything else...?

Given that I haven't actually been wrong about anything so far, you're starting to wander into la la land.

Cameron being 'silent' on gay marriage..

Gay marriage will make British society stronger, David Cameron has insisted as an historic change to the meaning of matrimony comes into effect.

Mr Cameron said the introduction of same-sex marriage in England and Wales - after a debate which bitterly divided his own party and pitted church against state - was a tribute to “the sort of country we are”.

Writing in PinkNews, the gay and lesbian website, he said the redefinition of marriage was in keeping with Britain’s “proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...marriages.html

Writing in PinkNews, that famously homophobic right wing rag.

Oh and then he showed just how much he was being dragged into the issue against his will..

Mr Cameron has also sent personal wedding cards to some of the first same-sex couples to marry.

Damn those Lib Dems making Cameron do things he didn't want to!

[I AM MOBIUS]

I think you need to learn what the word definition means.

I think you need to understand what the definition of conservative is and why they are instinctively/intrinsically homophobic.

And yet it was passed by a conservative leader of a conservative majority coalition government. Strange that..

You should be a politician yourself! I've just proved that the majority of your MPs voted AGAINST gay marriage and you ignore the whole central point of the argument!

Here's the number again, because you avoided it last time:

Blow for Cameron as 128 Tory MPs vote against gay marriage - Tory opponents of the bill outnumber supporters as just 117 Conservative MPs vote in favour.

117 to 128

It was a bill championed by the Lib Dems and saved from the revolt of conservatives who couldn't hide their homophobia by the Labour party...

You are unbelievable, Kent, your evasion of the truth here is something that Ben would be proud of!

But yes, as you say, what the history books will ultimately record is exactly what you said, despite the fact that it couldn't be further from the truth:

And yet it was passed by a conservative leader of a conservative majority coalition government.

Which was exactly what Cameron hoped to achieve in the first place - yet another hijacking of a Lib Dem policy...

I disagree with lots of Tory MP's on lots of things. Same as I disagree with lots of Labour MP's on lots of things. If they had actually managed to stop gay marriage being passed then I'd probably be a lot more angry about it, but they didn't.

Only because Labour prevented them from succeeding - you do realise you have Labour to be thankful for, despite the best efforts of the majority of tory MPs!!?

Again, you're as deluded as Ben if you actually believe the apologist propaganda that you're spewing...

Of course he's a total ****, but you've picked the one reason that could apply to pretty much any politician in history. If you want something fairly unique to a leader in modern times, why not just rage about the fact he's totally out of touch with modern British people and has filled his cabinet with people from the same hugely privileged social group?

I'll get to that, but try as you might to change the subject and wriggle out of it, I'm happy skewering you of the bare-faced lies that you're peddling...

Ok, you also need to learn what the word 'intrinsically' means.

See above. Clearly you don't have a clue as to what conservatism stands for.

UKIP are the most homophobic major party in the UK

Yay, Ben the disingenuous tactics again!

Virtually every elected UKIP official is an ex member of the conservatives - BOTH of UKIP's MPs are tory defectors FFS! UKIP is simply the lunatic extension of the tory party!

I never thought I would ever say this but thank **** for FPP, because otherwise we would currently be staring down the barrel of a certain Conservative/UKIP coalition right now!

Why would I admit something you've basically invented? You do understand that just repeating something over and over doesn't actually make it true right? If you'd said something like 'The Tory party was historically far more homophobic than the country in general' or even 'Tory MP's are far more statistically homophobic than those of other parties' then there'd be nothing to argue about. But trying to claim its some intrinsic part of the party is just moronic. The Tory party has a lot of old voters who are demographically far more likely to be homophobic and racist, and elect MP's who pander to that. The same way the 30% of Labour MP's who were against probably represent very working class areas where sexual diversity hasn't taken hold as much.

I've not invented it - the facts are there to be seen in all the bits of my posts that you completely ignored or 'forgot' to quote! Best of all, you actually admit it in the end here...

But don't try to pin it on old voters - labour has them too, however only 14 Labour MPs voted against the bill compared to 194 who voted for it.

Would you care to elaborate on 14 out of 194 is the equivalent of 30%, because from where I'm sitting, you're now resorting to out and out lying through your teeth...

[kentonio]

It was a bill championed by the Lib Dems and saved from the revolt of conservatives who couldn't hide their homophobia by the Labour party...

It was a bill championed by the leadership of the party against the wishes of a lot of the old school of the party. I don't know why you're finding this so hard to understand, needs more sheep?

I'll get to that, but try as you might to change the subject and wriggle out of it, I'm happy skewering you of the bare-faced lies that you're peddling...

I haven't told any lies, you're just fixated on trying to prove your preconceptions are true, so you just keep repeating the same circular argument. it basically amounts to 'Well they're intrinsically homophobic, so obviously they are intrinsically homophobic!'. It's not exactly a convincing argument. As I said before, if you want to narrow it down to a question like 'Why don't you feel uncomfortable supporting a party where a majority of MP's took a homophobic position?' then you'd be doing much better, and I'd have already told you that it does indeed make me uncomfortable and probably help moved me away from the party in general. It does not mean however that the party itself is intrinsically homophobic, if it was then Cameron could not have survived supporting it as official Tory policy.

Yay, Ben the disingenuous tactics again!

Virtually every elected UKIP official is an ex member of the conservatives - BOTH of UKIP's MPs are tory defectors FFS! UKIP is simply the lunatic extension of the tory party!

Yes, UKIP are largely ex-conservatives. If you stopped frothing for a second, you'd understand that the reason Cameron was able to lead the Tories in the direction of sexual equality was because most of the really hardcore *******s had already left the party. UKIP regardless of where its members came from, is an entirely separate entity.

I've not invented it - the facts are there to be seen in all the bits of my posts that you completely ignored or 'forgot' to quote! Best of all, you actually admit it in the end here...

You're so determined to prove the stupid position you started with, that you're seemingly incapable of realizing that the party is a much bigger entity than just its MP's. It would apparently just be too painful to you to admit that millions of conservative supporters and members are completely on board with gay rights and marriage equality, because it would interfere with your bizarre and slightly insane desire to paint a party that represents the majority of English voters as some monolithic evil empire. Again, it'd be so easy to throw targeted insults at the people actually responsible, and there would be absolutely no defense of them. Instead you're aiming for some grand knockout punch, and instead swinging and knocking yourself out.

Would you care to elaborate on 14 out of 194 is the equivalent of 30%, because from where I'm sitting, you're now resorting to out and out lying through your teeth...

Actually reading back, I'd got the statistic about climate change denial stuck in my head. Honest mistake, which I'm happy to admit.

Oh and..

the facts are there to be seen in all the bits of my posts that you completely ignored or 'forgot' to quote!

That's a little rich, considering I picked you up on your bizarre 'black voters opinions on Tory policy on homosexuality' statistic and you managed to 'completely ignore or forgot to quote' it.

We're making very big posts at the moment, yes I'm going to filter down your frothing rants into more digestible chunks. If you want something in particular answered then either use less raving filler material or just ask more clearly.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Dear Bentonio,

Or should that be Bent for short, which is quite apt really...?

It was a bill championed by the leadership of the party against the wishes of a lot of the old school of the party. I don't know why you're finding this so hard to understand, needs more sheep?

It was a bill opportunistically supported by the leadership of the party against the wishes of the vast majority of the old school of the party. I don't know why you're finding this so hard to understand...

I haven't told any lies, you're just fixated on trying to prove your preconceptions are true, so you just keep repeating the same circular argument. it basically amounts to 'Well they're intrinsically homophobic, so obviously they are intrinsically homophobic!'. It's not exactly a convincing argument. As I said before, if you want to narrow it down to a question like 'Why don't you feel uncomfortable supporting a party where a majority of MP's took a homophobic position?' then you'd be doing much better, and I'd have already told you that it does indeed make me uncomfortable and probably help moved me away from the party in general. It does not mean however that the party itself is intrinsically homophobic, if it was then Cameron could not have survived supporting it as official Tory policy.

Good, we're getting somewhere now that you're starting to admit that my basic premise is correct: that a majority of tory MPs took a homophobic position and therefore the tory party is essentially homophobic in outlook.

And it wasn't official Tory policy as it wasn't in the manifesto, but part of the compromise of being in coalition with the Lib Dems. Therefore even moderately homophobic tories were persuaded to not vote against the bill, people like IDS. They are politicians, after all...

Yes, UKIP are largely ex-conservatives. If you stopped frothing for a second, you'd understand that the reason Cameron was able to lead the Tories in the direction of sexual equality was because most of the really hardcore *******s had already left the party. UKIP regardless of where its members came from, is an entirely separate entity.

Or, maybe the reason why UKIP have risen with such strength since the gay marriage vote - so many more of the rank and file homophobes decided to jump ship afterwards?

The UKIP is a splinter group of the Conservative party, a bit like the Militant Tendency was to Labour - The Conservative Front of Homophobia, if you will...

You're so determined to prove the stupid position you started with, that you're seemingly incapable of realizing that the party is a much bigger entity than just its MP's. It would apparently just be too painful to you to admit that millions of conservative supporters and members are completely on board with gay rights and marriage equality, because it would interfere with your bizarre and slightly insane desire to paint a party that represents the majority of English voters as some monolithic evil empire. Again, it'd be so easy to throw targeted insults at the people actually responsible, and there would be absolutely no defense of them. Instead you're aiming for some grand knockout punch, and instead swinging and knocking yourself out.

So you're saying that all the extremists of the conservative party have ended up becoming MPs...?

And no, I'm not the one who has been proved completely wrong about this issue, but given all your other delusions on the subject, I can see how your logic about who is getting knocked out could be wonky.

Actually reading back, I'd got the statistic about climate change denial stuck in my head. Honest mistake, which I'm happy to admit.

Ohhhh yessssssssssssssss - that must be it...

So, instead of 30% against, the actual figure of Labour MPs that did not support the bill was: 7% - as opposed to the 55% of Conservatives...

Lib Dems were 8.3%

Oh and the Lords results are far worse on the tories - because that's the old school of the party that you alluded to previously...

Pretty ****ing conclusive that the conservatives are much, much, MUCH, more homophobic than the other two mainstream parties!

Oh and..

That's a little rich, considering I picked you up on your bizarre 'black voters opinions on Tory policy on homosexuality' statistic and you managed to 'completely ignore or forgot to quote' it.

Nothing bizarre about the fact that they skewered the exact reason why Cameron chose to support Lib Dem policy...

I thought that was such an obvious point, even I couldn't be arsed *****-slapping you further at that point...

We're making very big posts at the moment, yes I'm going to filter down your frothing rants into more digestible chunks. If you want something in particular answered then either use less raving filler material or just ask more clearly.

You're the one defending the obvious falsehood that the rank and file tory party was in favour of gay marriage - it was Cameron dragging the rest of the party kicking and screaming into the 21st century! Many tories said then that it would lose him the 2015 election - looks like those particular chickens are coming home to roost...

Just admit defeat and all this goes away...

But you can't do that, can you, Bentonio...

[kentonio]

What a giant pile of steaming horse****. When I admit to mixing up 2 stats that we've actually discussed just 2 pages back, and you decide to call me a liar, you can go **** yourself. Then again I should have told you to several posts ago, as soon as it became clear that you had absolutely no interest in an actual discussion and just wanted to throw **** at someone.

Enjoy watching your party get ****ing annihilated in the general election. If you're in any way representative of them, they deserve everything they have coming.

[I AM MOBIUS]

No need to get 'Bent' out of shape about the fact you lost your argument...

[kentonio]

You didn't ask for an argument you insufferable dick, you pretended you were actually interested in something, and then tried to turn it into a rabid rant against the Tory party, and in the process decided to start accusing me of being a liar. As I said you can go **** yourself.

[I AM MOBIUS]

The thing I am genuinely puzzled about is how you could possibly have ever been a tory voter given your views on most things (e.g. gay marriage, the NHS, climate change, not religious, reigning in the elite etc) and the fact that you seem like an essentially fair minded person.

It is frankly unfathomable.

And I'm sorry if you think I was hard on you, but your argument that the tory party championed gay marriage in the UK is seriously deluded and I gave you my reasons. As your arguments became more and erratic, I had to slap you down more. Sorry if it hurt, but you were being disingenuous.

So I'm sorry if I made you out to be a liar, but what you are claiming are pretty serious mistruths that you seem to have genuinely bought into. Maybe it is not your intention to lie, but that is how it comes across - especially in light of your significant statistical error (don't get me started on ingrained conservative attitudes to climate change (that was your mistaken comparison, right?), or religion - those are different arguments).

So, sorry for calling you a liar, it is clearly very important to you that you are not seen to be one.

But, you are not a conservative and never have been, maybe you thought you were, but you seem to have been curiously afflicted by some kind of weird Stockholm Syndrome, or something, and frankly it's fascinating to watch...

Especially now that you seem to have finally woken up to some of the nasty aspects of the tories that have been there all along.

[kentonio]

The thing I am genuinely puzzled about is how you could possibly have ever been a tory voter given your views on most things (e.g. gay marriage, the NHS, climate change, not religious, reigning in the elite etc) and the fact that you seem like an essentially fair minded person.

It is frankly unfathomable.

Whats sad is that you couldn't stop long enough to ask yourself whether if someone with those views still considered themselves quite aligned to that party, whether that might not mean there could be an awful lot more people with the same views in that party.

But, you are not a conservative and never have been, maybe you thought you were, but you seem to have been curiously afflicted by some kind of weird Stockholm Syndrome, or something, and frankly it's fascinating to watch...

Thank you for telling me what I am and have always been, that is really good to know.

[I AM MOBIUS]

My pleasure.

It may have taken you a while, but you have finally woken up and realised that voting conservative is not the solution.

[kentonio]

Ironically you just increased the likelihood of voting Tory again by at least 30%.

[I AM MOBIUS]

You would seriously allow your voting choices to be affected by some stranger on the internet?

See, you're a really interesting subject.