Yet another damn terrorist attack

[Jon Miller]

We are on summer vacation at the university and so I had intended to play a bit of Civ with my work. Now I don't have time to do so, I hope that Sava and Mobius are happy.

JM

[Sava]

I hope that Sava and Mobius are happy.

Yup. You too bro.

I hope you didn't take this thread too personally. I still love you.

[Elok]

When you start calling all patent clerks morons, expect Einstein to get mentioned.

Ya lost me here.

No one is hushing up terrorist attacks. They are pointing out the ignorance and bigotry of people who view those attacks as somehow representative of all Muslims. Which you might view as "hushing up" ... but is really just being a decent human being.

My objections/inquiry are with Islam, not Muslims. Are all or even most Muslims violent? Obviously not, or we'd be drowning in the blood of our dead. But it is fair to ask what Islam, or various schools of Islam, really says/say about things, and it's fair to ask for substantive answers, not "religion of peace" and "bigot." In this case, a small minority of Muslims believe in some spectacularly scary things, and the majority do not. Superficially, at least, the actions of the original and presumptively "most correct" Muslims resemble those of the terrifying minority. This is a compelling question, and I dislike the way it is politically unacceptable to inquire.

I fail to see how that is relevant in any way to what you quoted.

As long as they are restricted to opinion, the opinions of written-off people are irrelevant, however loud. There are still oodles of people blithering about Obama's birth certificate in various corners of the net, but nobody bothers to argue with them because we've largely decided they don't matter. If questions about Islam fit into that lalalaIcanthearyou space, nobody will address, think of or answer them in a prominent, public manner. Which is a problem, because these questions really do need to be addressed. Fourteen years after 9/11, there really should be a large, well-known Muslim apologetics resource online.

The bottom line for me, I think, is that large numbers of people are voicing an opinion not because they agree with it, but because they fear the political or social repercussions of saying otherwise. That is always bad.

[Sava]

In this case, a small minority of Muslims believe in some spectacularly scary things, and the majority do not.

There's your answer. You seem to already know it. So why all the "questions"?

Religion is just a tool. It can be good or bad depending on who is doing the interpretations.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, so when you say you disagree with JM, you're actually agreeing with him?

But hey, instead of addressing my points, just launch into the personal attacks

You actually don't want to debate, you want to insult and purposely not listen. So you get the same medicine, sorry.

[Sava]

You actually don't want to debate,

It's not really a question of debating, in my mind. There's a right way and a wrong way to act. If someone isn't acting the right way, they need to get their motherfucking mind right.

Shame works.

If George Wallace can be made to take back his segregationist views, I have hope for almost everyone.

[kentonio]

Also, the modern liberal tendency to circle the wagons around Islam (out of sensitivity for their perceived pariah status or what-have-you) is deeply counterproductive for a variety of reasons.

I've never understood why religious people seem to think this. It's a pretty simple situation, liberals generally dislike Islam for all the social inequality stuff and horribly outdated unpleasant crap in the same way that we dislike that about any organized religion. What we REALLY dislike however is when one group in society is vilified and treated as 'other' based on the actions of a few of that group. That's happened a lot of times in the past, and it generally ends up with people being beaten to death in the streets, shops and houses being looted and burned, and that group ending up being terrible oppressed and persecuted. Despite how much we like to think that could never happen again, we're just deluding ourselves. If 9/11 had been followed a couple of months later by another major attack on the US by Islamic terrorists, the fuse could have well and truly been lit for exactly that scenario.

So forgive me if I 'defend' a group of people when the majority start to try and paint them all as some group of barbarians who believe in something completely lacking in basic decency. There's only one outcome from that, and it involves little shards of glass glistening on our streets as people are dragged off into ghettos and camps.

[Sava]

liberals generally dislike Islam for all the social inequality stuff and horribly outdated unpleasant crap in the same way that we dislike that about any organized religion. What we REALLY dislike however is when one group in society is vilified and treated as 'other' based on the actions of a few of that group.

Perfectly put.

Quite frankly, it's a matter of internal security. Can't have crimes against people or property becoming an issue just because a few redneck idiots feel the need to go mess some of those damn Mooslims up.

And who the fuck cares about contradictions in religious texts or in teachings? Grow up.

[Aeson]

Ya lost me here.

You were questioning the efficacy of silencing moderates. I mentioned some cases where moderate opposition had been cowed, leaving a few bigoted nutters to oppose, and we have seen some great results. So your complaints about how those examples were brought up ... it was your own doing.

Once it's just the real nutters left, they do most of the work themselves ... shaming anyone away from sharing any common ground.

My objections/inquiry are with Islam, not Muslims. Are all or even most Muslims violent? Obviously not, or we'd be drowning in the blood of our dead. But it is fair to ask what Islam, or various schools of Islam, really says/say about things, and it's fair to ask for substantive answers, not "religion of peace" and "bigot." In this case, a small minority of Muslims believe in some spectacularly scary things, and the majority do not. Superficially, at least, the actions of the original and presumptively "most correct" Muslims resemble those of the terrifying minority. This is a compelling question, and I dislike the way it is politically unacceptable to inquire.

It isn't politically unacceptable to inquire as to why Muslims believe what they do. There are respected people who make it their life's study.

That wasn't all you were doing. In fact the post I responded to wasn't about Islam much at all, but rather about your "liberal" strawman. When you lead in with attacks on a wide swath of people, especially with poorly defined qualifications (eg. circling the wagons) ... you aren't likely to get "substantive answers" in return.

The bottom line for me, I think, is that large numbers of people are voicing an opinion not because they agree with it, but because they fear the political or social repercussions of saying otherwise. That is always bad.

No, it isn't always bad. Social pressure can lead to good ends as well as bad, and is a virtually inescapable environmental pressure on each of us (especially early in life).

Political pressure (so long as it remains political and not physical/economic) is necessary for a democracy to function. The politician afraid his constituency will throw them out of office is a politician who is more likely to serve the interests of their constituency. Without that pressure the whole system falls apart.

Sure, it would be better if hate and ignorance just didn't exist, but it does ... and needs to be countered. Because there's always going to be societal and political pressure that influences people ... so it should be pointed towards good ends as best it can.

[rah]

I've always found that if you want to learn about a religion and need to do research or ask questions, the last person you should go to is somebody of that religion.
NO objectivity at all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's not really a question of debating, in my mind. There's a right way and a wrong way to act. If someone isn't acting the right way, they need to get their motherfucking mind right.

Shame works.

If George Wallace can be made to take back his segregationist views, I have hope for almost everyone.

Nope.

[Sava]

Nope.

Well, I'm actually interested in progress. You can debate all you want.

[I AM MOBIUS]

You actually don't want to debate, you want to insult and purposely not listen. So you get the same medicine, sorry.

Actually, from where I'm sitting, it's you who doesn't want to debate and who is purposely not listening - 'circling the wagons' so to speak and standing shoulder to shoulder with your Christian brethren when they make unreasonable/hypocritical comments about another religion. But then, because you yourself are a turncloak from Islam, you happen to agree with those unreasonable comments yourself...

All I've done is point out the hypocrisy by pointing out that your new religion has the very same sorts of texts/opinions that you were criticising about Islam, and you've redoubled in your efforts to compare the religion/god you've abandoned as a cruel and nasty one compared to the one you've 'honoured' (so cool that you get to choose which god you subject yourself to) with your choice, and called me a clueless ****stain to boot...

But then, I suppose it is only natural to not like it and lash out when you are busted for your hypocrisy, so I'm not taking it personally.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Well, I'm actually interested in progress. You can debate all you want.

I agree. Progress would be for adherents from one religion to not adversely compare the leaders/teachings of another religion to theirs because, well, that's how wars start...

Another form of progress would be for fellow adherents to not band together with the first adherent when the error of his ways are pointed out.

Yes I admit I do have a low opinion of religion, and it's partly because of the absurdity of people from one religion trying to claim either directly or indirectly that their religion is somehow better than another religion - because it strikes to the root of why I hold organised religion with such disdain in the first place! And it is something that no religious person has ever been able to adequately explain to me in the first place - the paradox of choosing one faith over another when there are so many faiths to choose from and that, by definition, only one faith (assuming you believe in a divine being or beings) is the true one...

Until someone comes up with a satisfactory answer to that last point, it really is like comparing which is the better unicorn - or the least rapey unicorn or whatever...

[ZEE]

MOBIUS is a PooPie-wooPie lol