Elok & C0ckney's religion and society thread.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

hmmm... I wonder. still... people putting some big bills in there. I passed it along... I didn't have any cash.

[Elok]

By "opiate of the masses," I didn't mean to refer to Marx specifically--I know he didn't mean it that way--but to the prevalent idea that religion caters to the poor and ignorant. The poor and ignorant prefer actual drugs, in my limited experience.

Cavanaugh's essay is available online, but be aware it's pretty friggin' huge. I can't really speak for the state of religion in Peru; we were only there ten months, and we went to the only Orthodox church in the country. I think what you describe of Brazil reminds me of what I've heard of China--a lot of their Christian movements supposedly have a similar "Jesus will make you rich" vulgarianism to them.

Imran: I haven't encountered anyone who's actually uncomfortable with the Theotokos. I'm thinking of something more subtle. Converts tend to bring Protestant patterns of thinking with them, along with certain phrases. Like "a personal relationship with Jesus." Sounds crude and proprietary to me, like you're trying to stake an ownership claim on the Almighty. Yicch.

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually Elok, to tell you the truth, it was this "immideate connection to God" without, let's say intermidiaries, that I had found pleasant in protestantism. (years ago)
Mind you, I'm completely ignorant on that subject. It's just a phrase I had heard and it made an impression.
I suppose this is "countered" so to say, by what you said about the chuch as a collective entity vs go it alone route. Anyway. I'm afraid I'm putting my foot in my mouth because I'm not familiar at all with the subject.

Have to say though, that such "religious mobility" is very "alien" from where I'm standing.
It's also very interesting.

[Ben Kenobi]

Those were philosophers and not scientists.

You are profoundly mistaken. Wow.

Read Euclid's elements! It lays out how we did (and continue to do geometry) up until about the 19th century.

[Elok]

Well, you have to understand the very different contexts in which Orthodoxy and American Protestantism developed. Orthodoxy is the faith of whole villages; for centuries, almost everyone any given Orthodox person knew was Orthodox. You worship together just as you live together, so individualistic expressions of faith seem out of place. American Protestantism, OTOH, had to compete, and it came from more individualistic roots to begin with, so it's all about you, your Bible and your God, and your only way to acquire a sacred space is to aggressively carve it out. And if you don't want to pray alone, you'd better convince someone else to join you. At least, that's my theory.

What that means in practice is that American Evangelicals sometimes have a disconcerting habit of bringing Jesus into purely secular conversations, throwing their Personal Relationship around like a name-dropping c-list celebrity trying to impress people with the famous people he vaguely knows. So, where you or I might say, "nice weather, huh?" they say, "my, this certainly is a fine day the Lord has given us, isn't it?" Okay, they're not all that bad, but even a little bit of effusive personal piety goes a long way. It's deeply unnerving.

[MrFun]

So, where you or I might say, "nice weather, huh?" they say, "my, this certainly is a fine day the Lord has given us, isn't it?"

Bless your heart Elok, and may the Lord shine on you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

they pass that plate around and people really put cash in it ?!?!? you know where that money is going, right??? you must.

Of course I do; I'm on my church's Finance Committee and Church Council.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran: I haven't encountered anyone who's actually uncomfortable with the Theotokos. I'm thinking of something more subtle. Converts tend to bring Protestant patterns of thinking with them, along with certain phrases. Like "a personal relationship with Jesus." Sounds crude and proprietary to me, like you're trying to stake an ownership claim on the Almighty. Yicch.

Well, I'm betting that in the personal journey they are struggling a bit with Theotokos and the hierarchy a bit. And, yes, Protestantism can turn out to be a good deal super individualistic (esp in the US), though it didn't necessarily start that way (look at Calvin's work at Geneva). However, I think, though I despise hyperindividualism and believe in a more communal view of society and faith, a personal relationship is actually quite a good thing. For one thing, I find, it promotes more private Bible reading and prayer.

[Felch]

Reading the Bible is what priests are for.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Is that the reason that the Catholic Church puts its official approval on vernacular language Bibles intended specifically for the laity to read these days?

[Imran Siddiqui]

And aren't priests merely teachers in that verse? Are teachers the only ones who can read texts? In that case, everyone has been doing schooling incorrectly

[Elok]

C0ckney, I just remembered you said something about nukes ending direct war between major powers. In general, I think that's correct. It has prevented direct war to date. But as plenty of centenary articles this year pointed out, on the eve of WWI plenty of people thought it would be economically suicidal for countries to go to war. It was also pretty insane for the UK to go to war over a dead Austro-Hungarian aristocrat. Somehow, war happened anyway. I don't believe major wars have ended for good. We may have to find a new way to wage war that dodges the threat somehow--perhaps state-sponsored terrorism on a vast scale?

[Ben Kenobi]

And aren't priests merely teachers in that verse? Are teachers the only ones who can read texts? In that case, everyone has been doing schooling incorrectly

Protestants, are by nature individualists, they just happen to choose an outlet to socialize now and again. Sometimes that outlet changes. Catholics have a very, very different view on the world, on authority and the role of the individual in both. Catholics don't believe it makes sense to have a 'personal relationship' with God. I'm not dating him... It's not a partnership of equals.

[C0ckney]

C0ckney, I just remembered you said something about nukes ending direct war between major powers. In general, I think that's correct. It has prevented direct war to date. But as plenty of centenary articles this year pointed out, on the eve of WWI plenty of people thought it would be economically suicidal for countries to go to war. It was also pretty insane for the UK to go to war over a dead Austro-Hungarian aristocrat. Somehow, war happened anyway. I don't believe major wars have ended for good. We may have to find a new way to wage war that dodges the threat somehow--perhaps state-sponsored terrorism on a vast scale?

i think you may be right there, although i would say that a likely outlet would be cyber wars, as more and more infrastructure depends on the internet. there's a limit though to how far such things can go. there's also a good old proxy war, so beloved by the US and soviets during the cold war; and as we know from our pro-israel brigade here, brown people's lives are worth less, so it should all work out well.

about ww1, obviously it was insane to go to war. however, there is a difference between the kind of insanity that leaves 50 million dead in a pointless slaughter and the kind that renders the world uninhabitable. so yes i think that 'hot' wars, between the major powers are a thing of the past.

[Ben Kenobi]

That people say that a great war is impossible is the surest sign we are not far from one.