Uhm, WTF Britain?

[Sava]

I'm not arguing that we should ban abortion. I'm arguing that it would cool, in most cases, if people chose adoption instead of abortion.

Yeah. It would also be cool if everyone was always nice to each other and bad feelings just didn't exist.

Until then, we're living in reality where people need to be able to make basic life decisions... like whether or not to go through with a potentially life threatening process... just to appease your personal moral thought experiments.

How about you just learn to mind your own ****ing business?

That would kill two birds with one stone.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Except it isn't too fundamental to overrule because we don't. Setting aside the late term thing (because it's not really relevant, and we both oppose it anyway), abortion fits into a special category because banning it would involve another living human being being told what they can and cannot do with their own body, a group no less that spent several thousand years being treated like property.

Why "setting aside the late term thing"? Why do you oppose it when opposing it means "[involving] another living human being told what they can and cannot do with their own body"? This seems to be a hypocrisy on your part.

If you think for one second that women are going to allow their rights to be stripped away again then you're deluding yourself.

I find it interesting that you lump women in one bloc like this. The biggest pro-lifers I know are women, so it isn't all of them who believe in one way on this.

For instance:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/08/02/guess-who-likes-the-gops-20-week-abortion-ban-women/

The Post-ABC poll showed 56 percent of men thought abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 55 percent of women said the same. Over the past 20 years, there has been little difference between the two genders on this question.

The Quinnipiac poll does show that women support abortion rights more than men — 61 percent to 53 percent — but, again, it also shows women are significantly more supportive of the 20-week abortion ban, with just 25 percent opposed to it.

---

Because despite you trying to claim I'm pretending this is clear cut, it's actually a very nuanced and complicated discussion. You can probably find all sorts of instances where a females body choice can be overridden (hell this thread is about one such instance), but at the root of it there's a pretty clear and hard fast principle: Women's bodies are their own except under the most exceptional circumstances.

People are welcome to their own opinions, but when we talk about stuff being open for debate the implication is usually that it's still something that's still open for legal change if people are vocal enough. This particular civil right is too fundamental to women to be overruled. Even if 51% of women and all men wanted to ban abortion, that still means you'd be talking about forcing 49% of women into losing control over their bodies. Not going to happen.

Sounds like you are trying to make it "clear cut" to me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But srsly: other viewpoints are irrelevant. These are intensely personal decisions. Where do you get off thinking you have the right to make them for everyone else?

We make personal decisions for people all the time. Have you met modern day governments?

[Sava]

We make personal decisions for people all the time. Have you met modern day governments?

So you're using Serb reasoning now?

(ITS OKAY BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE DO IT)



btw, you responded to my question without answering it

Where do you get off thinking you can make those decisions for other people?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Because I live in a democratic society where decisions affect all of us and all of us get to decide which sort of society we'd like to be.

[Lorizael]

Yeah. It would also be cool if everyone was always nice to each other and bad feelings just didn't exist.

Until then, we're living in reality where people need to be able to make basic life decisions... like whether or not to go through with a potentially life threatening process... just to appease your personal moral thought experiments.

How about you just learn to mind your own ****ing business?

That would kill two birds with one stone.

No, I'm sorry, but I'm allowed to have a ****ing opinion. No one is required to listen to my opinion, but I'm allowed to have it. And if I happen to make good points, then other people might happen to be convinced by them. That's the price you pay for living in a civil, democratic society. If you don't like it, set up your own dictatorship.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, I'm sorry, but I'm allowed to have a ****ing opinion. No one is required to listen to my opinion, but I'm allowed to have it. And if I happen to make good points, then other people might happen to be convinced by them. That's the price you pay for living in a civil, democratic society. If you don't like it, set up your own dictatorship.

The excuses for living in a dictatorship of "proper" ideals is disgusting.

[Sava]

No, I'm sorry, but I'm allowed to have a ****ing opinion. No one is required to listen to my opinion, but I'm allowed to have it. And if I happen to make good points, then other people might happen to be convinced by them. That's the price you pay for living in a civil, democratic society. If you don't like it, set up your own dictatorship.

Hopefully, someone will care enough to argue with your bull**** strawman.

[Sava]

Because I live in a democratic society where decisions affect all of us and all of us get to decide which sort of society we'd like to be.

Everything is not and should not be up to a vote.

Your position is untenable and morally indefensible.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Everything is not and should not be up to a vote.

Your position is untenable and morally indefensible.

Your dictatorship of proper ideals is morally repellent. Though shutting people up for having improper ideals is fitting with plenty of Eastern European dictatorships (Fascist, Communist and otherwise), so at least you are a credit to your ancestors.

[Sava]

Your dictatorship of proper ideals is morally repellent. Though shutting people up for having improper ideals is fitting with plenty of Eastern European dictatorships (Fascist, Communist and otherwise), so at least you are a credit to your ancestors.

Hey man, America is a Republic, not a democracy. Love it or GTFO

Also, the irony in me lecturing a supposed "Christian" about keeping irrelevant judgements to himself.

Maybe you need a new religion too.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hey man, America is a Republic, not a democracy. Love it or GTFO

Hey man, in America we allowed to have opinions on the validity of rights (thanks ACLU). Love it or GTFO

[Sava]

Hey man, in America we allowed to have opinions on the validity of rights (thanks ACLU). Love it or GTFO

Awesome. Both you and Lori backed yourselves into "BUT I CAN HAVE AN OPINION" corner.

Thanks for the concession.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Considering that your argument has been that men aren't allowed to have valid opinions on the matter, that defense is valid and counters your idiotic assumptions.

[Lorizael]

Hopefully, someone will care enough to argue with your bull**** strawman.

The idea that I need to mind my own business is ridiculous. The only way we can actually change culture is by talking about it, by communicating, by fostering ideas.

Look, I haven't yet met someone who was like, man, abortions are awesome! Let's all have abortions! That's because, no matter what, abortions pretty much always represent a failure of society in some way. A failure to prevent rape, or a failure to adequately teach about/provide birth control, a failure to instill self-control, etc.

So yeah, I'd rather if there weren't abortions. But getting rid of abortions alone doesn't solve anything. You have to get to the root of the problem. And the root of the problem is this: as a society, we no longer want sex and reproduction to be definitively linked. So it's pretty clear what the solution is: we should genetically engineer humans to be born sterile, and fetuses should be cultivated in artificial wombs. Boom. Problem solved.

But you'd rather not listen to my insane (but correct) ideas, because I say, "Maybe we shouldn't have as many abortions..." and you immediately say, "OMG WHY DO YOU HATE WOMEN GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY BODY YOU REPUBLITHUG!!!!"