Supreme Court rules in favor of public legislative prayers

[Berzerker]

TMM, Saul and David were anointed by God
Dont think Caesar can make the same claim

[The Mad Monk]

Yep. Christian martyrs were acting against the authority of Rome. Because God's Law is greater than civil law.

Yep, and they accepted Rome's discipline, which is how they became martyrs.

[The Mad Monk]

TMM, Saul and David were anointed by God
Dont think Caesar can make the same claim

Don't make me post Romans 13 again.

[Kidlicious]

Maybe Paul was just saying obey the law as much as possible so that you don't look disobedient in front of the world. We are servants.

[kentonio]

@ Ken: Jesus both permitted and commanded his followers to be armed: He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. - Luke 22:36 NIV

Here's an explanation.

“But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with his transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.’ And they said, ‘Look, Lord, here are two swords.’ And he said to them,’It is enough’ (Luke 22:36-38, emphasis mine).

The part I emphasised shows us why Jesus told his disciples to buy swords. Jesus was reminding them that what He came to do, namely die on the cross for our sins, was about to be accomplished. So contrary to Grudem, the reference to the swords is supposed to be taken metaphorically. Grudem accuses pacifists of saying its a metaphor for “the disciples should be armed spiritually to fight spiritual enemies”2. But it’s not a metaphor for that, rather it is a metaphor for the fact that since what is written about Jesus is going to be fulfilled, His disciples “must now be prepared for a time of rejection and persecution … and the sword serves as a vivid symbol of the fact that they must now expect to encounter opposition”. 3

Even if Jesus was telling them to buy literal swords (which I don’t think he was), but even if he was, all that would mean is that he needed to be able fulfill what was written about him so he needed to get the authorities to arrest him. Greg Boyd states it like this,

“To fulfill prophecy, Jesus had to be viewed as a transgressor. He had to at least appear to be a political revolutionary to the Jewish authorities for them to feel justified in arresting him. His cleansing of the temple a few days earlier was probably calculated for the same effect. So, to fulfill the prophecy and to provoke the Jewish authorities, he had to have enough weaponry to justify being viewed as a law breaking revolutionary”. 4

No matter what though, Jesus certainly did not intend for His disciples to use the sword for self-defense.

http://exiletheology.wordpress.com/2...-and-pacifism/

Seeing the quote in it's entirety adds a whole new dimension to it.

[kentonio]

Why did Jesus not rebuke the centurion (Matthew 8:5-13) for being a soldier and instead compliment and commend him for or the faith that came from his understanding of authority in the military?

That's a rather bizarre interpretation. He compliments him on his faith, but 'that came from his understanding of authority in the military' is just weird.

As for why he doesn't rebuke him, Jesus also doesn't rebuke a number of people who own slaves, should we also take that as a presumption that Jesus approved of slavery?

[DinoDoc]

Okay, theologian. Tell me what the "turn the other cheek" was all about. You're an expert at this stuff.

Would you care to explain Proverbs 25:26 in the context you clearly favor then?

[Felch]

The righteous who allow the wicked to lead them astray are like muddied water in a well.

[Sava]

The righteous who allow the wicked to lead them astray are like muddied water in a well.

Left alone they'll settle down to the bottom and be less of a problem unless disturbed?

[kentonio]

Would you care to explain Proverbs 25:26 in the context you clearly favor then?

Seriously?

Like a trampled spring and a polluted well Is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked

That to you is a mandate for committing violence? I notice you didn't respond to what I posted for Matthew 8:5-13 btw. Care to offer a rebuttal?

[Berzerker]

Yep, and they accepted Rome's discipline, which is how they became martyrs.

Other than obeying Rome's order to pay homage to it's gods, did they have a choice? They became martyrs with their disobedience, so does "render unto Caesar" mean they were wrong to disobey the state?

Don't make me post Romans 13 again.

Paul? I'd prefer something from Jesus...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yep, and they accepted Rome's discipline, which is how they became martyrs.

So you think that by accepting their deaths, they asserted that Rome was an authority worth following? They became martyrs for denying the authority of Rome - same reason Jesus became a martyr (you don't really think the Pilate would have crucified someone just because the Jewish leaders were getting all agitated that he was declaring himself God, do you? - Jesus is Lord means that Caesar is not).

Submitting to punishment is necessary because Jesus was against violence. What else are you going to do? Non-violence also shows how corrupt the civil authorities are (MLK also learned this lesson).

[Berzerker]

And they said, ‘Look, Lord, here are two swords.’ And he said to them,’It is enough’

2 swords was enough?

hmm...gotta agree with Ken.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Other than obeying Rome's order to pay homage to it's gods, did they have a choice? They became martyrs with their disobedience, so does "render unto Caesar" mean they were wrong to disobey the state?

You would think.. if you followed that line of logic.

[The Mad Monk]

So you think that by accepting their deaths, they asserted that Rome was an authority worth following? They became martyrs for denying the authority of Rome - same reason Jesus became a martyr (you don't really think the Pilate would have crucified someone just because the Jewish leaders were getting all agitated that he was declaring himself God, do you? - Jesus is Lord means that Caesar is not).

Submitting to punishment is necessary because Jesus was against violence. What else are you going to do? Non-violence also shows how corrupt the civil authorities are (MLK also learned this lesson).

The spiritual authority, not the civil authority. You just said it yourself, they submitted to punishment. They did not rise up, or attempt to overthrow the Roman Empire.