downsizing US military

[molly bloom]

And btw, who do you direct the deaths in Vietnam on? Whose score card?

Are they all the fault of the US and allies, or are they maybe sort of partly the fault of people who waged an aggressive war to take over territory of another state?

Excuse me, but do you imagine the governments in South Viet Nam were some kind of south-east Asian Social Democrats ?

Because they weren't- they had hit squads and concentration camps and detention without trial and torture, repression of Buddhists and Buddhism (Diem was a Roman Catholic parachuted in by the U.S., and had little or no support in South Viet Nam prior to his 'election') government organised drug smuggling and naturally a secret police.

Frankly it's hard to distinguish it just by that list of horrors from anywhere similar in South America, Central America or Africa that was also the recipient of U.S. support 'against Communism'.

[molly bloom]

Oh good lord. You really don't understand how force projection creates stability?

Worked great for the U.S. in Lebanon, didn't it ?

Still, really showed those Muslims what happens when you murder American soldiers- a Caribbean island is made safe for Club 18-30.

[onodera]

Is that seriously how Russians rationalize killing five million of their Ukrainian "brothers?" No wonder they're so keen on not being a puppet of Moscow.

Intelligent people can understand other people's motives without accepting them as valid, can't they? The Soviet government needed grain, they saw no other options, those farmers that stood in the way paid the price. Manifest destiny at its best.

[Al B. Sure!]

I think it's bonkers.

Should we list some of the more unpalatable regimes propped up by the U.S. and see how un-oppressive they were ?

How about you tell me what Soviet satellite wasn't oppressive? Your list is completely irrelevant because I never said no American puppets were oppressive. Hope you had fun compiling that list because it does nothing to my argument. I said:

Given their history, communist governments are guaranteed to be oppressive. Governments propped up by America have had an X% chance of being oppressive, with X less than 100%. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement.

How is X less than 100%? South Korea. Taiwan. That's two.

So compared to Soviet satellites of which every single one was oppressive, US imperialism always has the chance for a free nation. Communism does not.

[100% Wolf]

How is X less than 100%? South Korea. Taiwan. That's two.

So compared to Soviet satellites of which every single one was oppressive, US imperialism always has the chance for a free nation. Communism does not.

Lots of former Soviet satellites are now democracies after Communism peacefully collapsed. Therefore Communist imperialism always has the chance of leading to a free nation if you wait long enough.

[Al B. Sure!]

Lots of former Soviet satellites are now democracies after Communism peacefully collapsed. Therefore Communist imperialism always has the chance of leading to a free nation if you wait long enough.

Do you actually think it makes sense to credit the Soviet Union for modern Poland when it stopped being a Soviet satellite? You really take some bizarre positions just to be contrarian.

[100% Wolf]

Do you actually think it makes sense to credit the Soviet Union for modern Poland when it stopped being a Soviet satellite? You really take some bizarre positions just to be contrarian.

No, that would be roughly as retarded as claiming US intervention turned Taiwan into a democracy rather than internal forces.

[notyoueither]

I think rather it was US intervention allowed Taiwan the space to develop into a democracy. Absent US intervention not so much.

[Al B. Sure!]

No, that would be roughly as retarded as claiming US intervention turned Taiwan into a democracy rather than internal forces.

So Lee Teng-hui wasn't our guy in Taipei?

[Al B. Sure!]

I think rather it was US intervention allowed Taiwan the space to develop into a democracy. Absent US intervention not so much.

He thinks Taiwan wouldn't be a province of the People's Republic if we hadn't intervened. Meanwhile in our universe...

[100% Wolf]

He thinks Taiwan wouldn't be a province of the People's Republic if we hadn't intervened. It's more of the usual gribbler-verse.

...and without Soviet intervention Poland would be part of Nazi Germany. DUH.

[Al B. Sure!]

Without Soviet intervention Poland would be part of Nazi Germany. DUH.

You're not even worth responding to. You're like Ben.

[100% Wolf]

You're not even worth responding to. You're like Ben.

Why don't you just admit that "durr sometimes we unintentionally create democracies that wouldn't exist otherwise" is a poor rationalization of US foreign policy?

[Al B. Sure!]

Why don't you just admit that "durr sometimes we unintentionally create democracies that wouldn't exist otherwise" is a poor rationalization of US foreign policy?

We don't unintentionally create democracies. Ideally, we want and have always wanted democracies. That is our goal even if most, but not all, of our Cold War puppets have been oppressive.

Our puppets have varied from oppressive regimes to democracies. Every single Soviet puppet has been an oppressive regime.

[100% Wolf]

We don't unintentionally create democracies. Ideally, we want and have always wanted democracies. That is our goal even if most, but not all, of our Cold War puppets have been oppressive.

Our puppets have varied from oppressive regimes to democracies. Every single Soviet puppet has been an oppressive regime.

So your argument is:
1. Some American-backed regimes are oppressive, some are not
2. All Soviet-backed regimes are oppressive
3. Therefore, it's okay for the US to back oppressive regimes in order to cockblock the SU's attempts to install oppressive regimes...?

I don't think US support for non-oppressive regimes is really controversial.