Arizona's new anti-gay law.

[Kidlicious]

I think if you really didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding and you had to you would just back a really ****ty cake, but you might get sued. Idk.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's the problem, Kidicious - these bakers are being targetted because they are Christian and openly so. That's why the gay people are confronting them. This is 100 percent a religious liberty issue - for the same reason that Imran et al are claiming needs to be done to protect gay people. What the gay people are after is simply to shut down all the openly Christian businesses.

It would be akin to black folks going around and shutting down and attacking all the white owned businesses simply because they had a picture of the owner out front. Would you be able to claim that harrassing a white business owner was a protected activity?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can see the general sense of it, but in this case there are clearly points in which this conflicts with religious liberty. I actually have heard of a case where a marriage counselor got censured for refusing to counsel a lesbian couple--was she supposed to spend hours and hours acting against her conscience, or just find a whole different career so she wouldn't offend a small minority of potential clients? There needs to be some sensible wiggle room here.

Lets think about it for a second. Some people justified their segregation worldview through their faith. Would you be ok with a counselor refusing to counsel a mixed race couple because they felt that blacks had the curse of Ham?

[Ben Kenobi]

Some people justified their segregation worldview through their faith. Would you be ok with a counselor refusing to counsel a mixed race couple because they felt that blacks had the curse of Ham?

Sounds to me like you're making a litmus test for counsellors.

What else should be there, Imran? I'd love to see a list of opinions that you believe ought to deprive someone of certification as a counsellor.

[DinoDoc]

Lets think about it for a second. Some people justified their segregation worldview through their faith. Would you be ok with a counselor refusing to counsel a mixed race couple because they felt that blacks had the curse of Ham?

Do gays really have a burning desire to have a devout Christian cater their wedding or serve as its photographer? Is the devout Christian the only baker or photographer in town? Seriously, the strikes me as poor planning on the part of the new couple. Unless of course they want to increase the chances the day turns into a disaster.

[Ben Kenobi]

the strikes me as poor planning on the part of the new couple.

It's almost like they are deliberately going out of their way to attack people they hate. Shouldn't hate crimes laws have something to say about targetting?

Imran, Imran? Anybody? It's like if the KKK shows up at the only black storeowner, we're supposed to conclude that the storeowner has an obligation to bake a KKKake for the Klan.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You are from Mississippi and are asking if a devout Christian the only baker or photographer in town?

(Those towns definitely exist in South Georgia)

[DinoDoc]

You are from Mississippi and are asking if a devout Christian the only baker or photographer in town?

The two incidents occurred in New Mexico and Colorado.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are from Mississippi and are asking if a devout Christian the only baker or photographer in town?

(Those towns definitely exist in South Georgia)

The point still stands, Imran. Does the black Baker have an obligation to bake a KKKake for the Klan? With a lynched black man hanging from a tree front and center?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The two incidents occurred in New Mexico and Colorado.

Have you been to either of those states? I remember driving through towns in Northern Colorado who had a population around 100 (Wyoming was even less). And Colorado has plenty of deeply Christian towns - Colorado Springs for instance.

[100% Wolf]

I can see the general sense of it, but in this case there are clearly points in which this conflicts with religious liberty. I actually have heard of a case where a marriage counselor got censured for refusing to counsel a lesbian couple--was she supposed to spend hours and hours acting against her conscience, or just find a whole different career so she wouldn't offend a small minority of potential clients? There needs to be some sensible wiggle room here.

That makes sense but if you accept that shouldn't you also let marriage counselors refuse to counsel interracial couples?

[MrFun]

What's interesting, is that the gay couple in New Mexico won their case because New Mexico already protected gay people from discrimination.

Arizona does not have such legal protection in place for gay people, so this whole charade by Republican legislators to push this bigoted law was wholly unnecessary. Gay people can already be denied services, and discriminated against in Arizona.

[MrFun]

Of course, we could all just treat one another the way we ourselves would like to be treated.

[SlowwHand]

I wish they'd make you illegal.

[MrFun]

Lets think about it for a second. Some people justified their segregation worldview through their faith. Would you be ok with a counselor refusing to counsel a mixed race couple because they felt that blacks had the curse of Ham?

Religion has been used throughout history to rationalize or justify a LOT of horrible things:

1) burning non-believers at stake

2) slavery

3) disfranchisement and employment discrimination of women

4) war

5) colonial conquest

6) ethnic cleansing

7) racial segregation