Scottish "Independence" manifesto

[C0ckney]

This is predicated on the argument that Scotland currently contributes, and will get in the divorce, 90% of the oil. National assets won't necessarily split that way.

it's a statement about the present which is backed up by scottish government figures. of course things might be adjusted in some way in any independence negotiations, but saying that oil extracted in scotland's waters is part of scotland's output is completely reasonable.

[Wezil]

You seem pretty firmly in the Yes camp, and obviously that's your right, but I don't understand how people can take the SNP seriously when they repeatedly and openly lie their asses off about so many issues, and refuse to engage in any way on the negatives. It's all fluffy blue and white clouds and happy dancing in the street, and no care or consideration to the very real issues that an independent nation would face in a time of economic troubles.

Speaking from the Cdn perspective with the Quebec experience - It's not a rational argument/appeal, it is an emotional one.

[kentonio]

Fun stuff from the White Paper..

Retain a single UK-wide market for electricity and gas

Create a formal relationship between BBC and SBS to supply the same level of network programming - so Doctor Who and Eastenders would continue.

Ministers say there would be no restrictions on movement in the common travel area between Scotland, the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Isle of Man.

but..

Maintain free tuition for Scottish students studying in Scotland but charge fees for students from the rest of the UK.

Brilliant, so they're going to expect the UK to cooperate with anything they need, but when it comes to things that might benefit the UK, they're going to tell us to get ****ed.

Incidentally, if they think they're going to join the EU then they aren't going to be charging UK citizens for university, as it would contravene EU rules. Let's see what the SNP have to say about that..

“We believe that the unique and unprecedented position of a post-independent Scotland will enable us to continue our current policy in a way which is consistent with the principles of free movement across the EU as a whole and which is compatible with EU requirements.”

O...k...

[kentonio]

politicians have, from time to time, being known to be less than honest with the public about tax plans.

Absolutely true, but it's a little more serious when it's the same politicians that are trying to divide a country. If it goes wrong for Scotland it could go very, very wrong.

they're certainly real issues, but i don't see the deception. some of these questions can only be answered by the EU, who, for understandable reasons, prefer to wait until after any vote to give an answer.

The SNP aren't saying 'we don't know' they're making concrete claims that these things will not be an issue and they are not capable of making that claim honestly.

what happens to the bank of england will no doubt be a matter for negotiation if the scots vote yes.

It's a joke quite frankly. If they want to use the currency but be at the whim of the UK interest rates etc then they can, but the idea that we would give them decision making power on the BoE makes no sense. Why would we? If Scotland is independent why would we give a **** about keeping their economy buoyant if that conflicts with the UK's needs?

what is a 'global defence ability' and why would a nation of 5 million odd need it?

Why would a small nation require the protection of a huge defensive alliance? Why wouldn't they? We have no idea what shape the world is going to be in in decades to come, if there's another big war then how exactly is that little nation of 5 million people going to defend itself again an aggressor without an alliance?

what the SNP are proposing seems more than adequate for scotland's defence needs.

What they are proposing is fine if all they need to do is defend themselves again fishing vessels encroaching on their territorial waters.

You seem pretty firmly in the Yes camp, and obviously that's your right, but I don't understand how people can take the SNP seriously when they repeatedly and openly lie their asses off about so many issues, and refuse to engage in any way on the negatives. It's all fluffy blue and white clouds and happy dancing in the street, and no care or consideration to the very real issues that an independent nation would face in a time of economic troubles.

[Dauphin]

once again, england doesn't subsidise scotland. i've already posted the figures in this thread.

This is predicated on the argument that Scotland currently contributes, and will get in the divorce, 90% of the oil. National assets won't necessarily split that way.

[C0ckney]

oh, there is this as well

ensure that from 6 April 2016, new pensioners will receive a Scottish single-tier pension, set at the rate of £160 per week – £1.10 a week higher than the rate currently expected for the UK

this, by the way, is a slight alteration to an already planned UK wide reform which establish a flat rate for new pensions from 2016. £1.10 is a pretty small difference, and when lower life expectancy in scotland is taken into account, the impact on public finances is likely to be minimal.

[C0ckney]

You're misunderstanding my point. I used final salary schemes as a reference point because they have the most generous escalation terms people could realistically expect to get (typically RPI or CPI to a max of 5%, with 2.5% max becoming increasingly the norm). This mooted Scottish state pension scheme has more generous escalation terms even than that.

It guarantees inflation-busting returns every year, regardless of economic conditions and regardless of market performance. How long do you think that could be sustained for?

the current UK state pension works like this.

1. Overview

The basic State Pension is a regular payment from the government that you can get when you reach State Pension age.

To get it you must have paid or been credited with National Insurance contributions.

The most you can currently get is £110.15 per week.

The basic State Pension increases every year by whichever is the highest:

earnings - the average percentage growth in wages (in Great Britain)
prices - the percentage growth in prices in the UK as measured by the Consumer Prices Index (CPI)
2.5%

this is what the SNP are proposing.

Pensioners’ incomes protected with the triple lock so that pensions
increase by either inflation, earnings, or 2.5 per cent, whichever is highest

the only novelty is possibly delaying the increase in pensionable age.

[Dinner]

A bunch of half-naked guys covered in blue paint and waving around swords would be enough to defend Scotland from her enemies.

It worked against the Romans.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

as i understand, this is for the state pension, which is fairly modest. anyone who has a final salary pension will be receiving considerably more.

You're misunderstanding my point. I used final salary schemes as a reference point because they have the most generous escalation terms people could realistically expect to get (typically RPI or CPI to a max of 5%, with 2.5% max becoming increasingly the norm). This mooted Scottish state pension scheme has more generous escalation terms even than that.

It guarantees inflation-busting returns every year, regardless of economic conditions and regardless of market performance. How long do you think that could be sustained for?

[pchang]

A bunch of half-naked guys covered in blue paint and waving around swords would be enough to defend Scotland from her enemies.

[C0ckney]

It's not just the ratio of workers to the (increasing) raw numbers of pensioners that poses the problem.

There's also the unprecedentedly and high and rising lifespans. And also the unprecedentedly generous terms (set to outstrip wages and inflation).

rising lifespans contribute to the ratio. as i said, productivity has always grown faster than the ratio and will probably continue to do so. more generous terms would mean that everyone's living standards still rose, just more slowly, as a greater proportion of society's wealth is directed towards the old.

That escalation measure is more generous than I've seen on the current conditions of any final salary pension scheme. The fact that "we've always managed it before" is no guarantee of future succes, particularly with all those unprecedented factors coming into play.

as i understand, this is for the state pension, which is fairly modest. anyone who has a final salary pension will be receiving considerably more.

it's a complicated issue, and the delay in raising the retirement age, something i think must happen, is concerning. there are also related issues like long term care which need to be addressed.

[C0ckney]

Depends. All the parts of the union have been running deficits for quite a while now, would an independent Scotland receive the same credit rating and loan terms as the UK as a whole?

in the short term probably, yes. there may be some divergence in the medium term, though.

[C0ckney]

They claim they aren't going to raise tax, and are going to cut corporation tax.

politicians have, from time to time, being known to be less than honest with the public about tax plans.

There are very real issues and not addressing them is an attempt to decieve the Scottish public. What about Schengen? What about teh UK only vetos that are going to be lost?

they're certainly real issues, but i don't see the deception. some of these questions can only be answered by the EU, who, for understandable reasons, prefer to wait until after any vote to give an answer.

The Scottish don't need us to 'go along with it' if the BoE are going to continue to control the financial levers, but the SNP are claiming that they will retain influence on the BoE which is a complete lie. If they want to use a currency that they have no control over and which the BoE could change interest rates without any regard to the Scottish economy, then they're more than welcome, but they need to be truthful about that.

what happens to the bank of england will no doubt be a matter for negotiation if the scots vote yes.

So basically you think Scotland should have no global defense ability and just take advantage of its neighbours defending it by proxy without any Scottish contribution?

what is a 'global defence ability' and why would a nation of 5 million odd need it?

what the SNP are proposing seems more than adequate for scotland's defence needs.

[kentonio]

once again, england doesn't subsidise scotland. i've already posted the figures in this thread.

Depends. All the parts of the union have been running deficits for quite a while now, would an independent Scotland receive the same credit rating and loan terms as the UK as a whole?

[DinoDoc]

once again, England doesn't subsidize Scotland. I've already posted the figures in this thread.

Then what's with the desire to keep the British pound and expectation that you lot will step in if things go wrong even if they leave?