Scottish "Independence" manifesto

[kentonio]

i don't see anything unusual about it. all white papers are written like that. the "if we win the election" doesn't need to be expressing stated.

A white paper is not supposed to be a speculative party manifesto.

we've both agreed that scotland is very unlikely to have problems entering the EU and that if they wish to keep sterling, they will be able to.

Not on the terms the SNP are claiming we haven't.

my point was that at the moment the english and scottish economies are integrated. indeed there's a far greater difference between the north east of england and london than there is between the north east and scotland. in other words, even if the scots were to find themselves without a say in interest rates, the real situation wouldn't change, as an appropriate rate for england would be an appropriate rate for scotland. there may, in the medium to long term be some divergence, of course, at which point the scotish government would need to consider its options.

That's only true if Scotland keep following a similar path to the rest of the UK, in which case whats the point in independence?

i doubt that chinese or russian tanks will be rolling down princes street any time soon. there just doesn't seem to any reason to devote a large portion of the nations resources to defence. if the situation changes, scotland could always shift a greater proportion of its resources towards defence.

You don't get to suddenly work something out when things go badly, if you don't prepare in advance then you risk being taken unawares. You can't just build ships and planes overnight, as any reading of history will show you. Not being prepared also makes you a much more inviting target for aggression. The world really hasn't changed as much as people seem to like to think.

[C0ckney]

It's also annoying because the SNP aren't the government of an independent Scotland, elections for that government would take place 2 months after independence. They're basically saying an independent Scotland would look like their party manifesto, which is more than a little cheeky.

i don't see anything unusual about it. all white papers are written like that. the "if we win the election" doesn't need to be expressing stated.

Examples of them making claims that they are not able to make? The EU one is a striking example, as is the currency issue.

we've both agreed that scotland is very unlikely to have problems entering the EU and that if they wish to keep sterling, they will be able to.

Currently it is in the UK's favour to ensure monetary policy benefits the UK as a whole. Why would we care about acting in an independent Scotland's best interests if those diverged from our own due to their new policy making? Equally why would we allow them any control over interest rates? How would that benefit us in any way? They have no leverage here, which is why they're making not so veiled threats about how they'd just walk away from their share of the national debt if we didn't cooperate. A stupid threat, because they are dependent on us aggreeing to give them a share of assets.

my point was that at the moment the english and scottish economies are integrated. indeed there's a far greater difference between the north east of england and london than there is between the north east and scotland. in other words, even if the scots were to find themselves without a say in interest rates, the real situation wouldn't change, as an appropriate rate for england would be an appropriate rate for scotland. there may, in the medium to long term be some divergence, of course, at which point the scotish government would need to consider its options.

There have been major wars affecting Europe for more than 2 thousand years. We've had a lull thanks to the post WW2 shape of the world, and unprecedented cooperation between European nations, but to assume the world is now a friendly place is a massive assumption indeed. China are currently sabre waving in the east and it's going to get a lot worse as their power grows, and Russia aren't exactly following a path of democracy right now. We just don't know where the world is going to go in the future and presenting a strong defensive front can prevent things getting out of hand.

i doubt that chinese or russian tanks will be rolling down princes street any time soon. there just doesn't seem to any reason to devote a large portion of the nations resources to defence. if the situation changes, scotland could always shift a greater proportion of its resources towards defence.

[Dr Strangelove]

What happens if Wales goes for independence and North Ireland decides it's more Scottish than English? Would England go back to a simple red cross in a field of white?
Next thorny question - what if the UK decides to exit the EU? If Scotland goes for independence and gets grandfathered into the EU how would the UK leaving the EU affect its relationship with the rest of the EU and with the UK?

[Dinner]

That works for the Irish.

[kentonio]

Doubt it, we'd probably keep it just to annoy them.

[Ban Kenobi]

Will the UK be redesigning its flag in the event of Scotland declaring independence?

[kentonio]

Looks like the white paper gave the Yes side an upsurge, but they're still trailing by about 10 points with 15% undecided.

[Dr Strangelove]

So how are the polls trending?

[kentonio]

my point was that if the scottish government needs to raise more money, there are ways they do so.

whether they keep on break any promise is between them and the electorate.

It's also annoying because the SNP aren't the government of an independent Scotland, elections for that government would take place 2 months after independence. They're basically saying an independent Scotland would look like their party manifesto, which is more than a little cheeky.

not from what i've seen. do have some examples in mind?

Examples of them making claims that they are not able to make? The EU one is a striking example, as is the currency issue.

what they're proposing is a continuation of the present situation in terms of currency and the bank of england. unless there is a significant divergence between the english and scottish economies in the future, i don't see how this would present a problem.

Currently it is in the UK's favour to ensure monetary policy benefits the UK as a whole. Why would we care about acting in an independent Scotland's best interests if those diverged from our own due to their new policy making? Equally why would we allow them any control over interest rates? How would that benefit us in any way? They have no leverage here, which is why they're making not so veiled threats about how they'd just walk away from their share of the national debt if we didn't cooperate. A stupid threat, because they are dependent on us aggreeing to give them a share of assets.

i'm not convinced that basing defence policy on an unknown threat, from an unknown quarter, at an unknown point in the future, is wise.

There have been major wars affecting Europe for more than 2 thousand years. We've had a lull thanks to the post WW2 shape of the world, and unprecedented cooperation between European nations, but to assume the world is now a friendly place is a massive assumption indeed. China are currently sabre waving in the east and it's going to get a lot worse as their power grows, and Russia aren't exactly following a path of democracy right now. We just don't know where the world is going to go in the future and presenting a strong defensive front can prevent things getting out of hand.

that seems a much more likely scenario than the above.

Certainly, but protecting against a future existential threat is not unwise. It's the whole point of the nuclear umbrella after all.

i'm pretty neutral about the whole thing. i'm not scottish after all. in fact if i were scottish i would probably vote no, as i don't think the arguments in favour are that strong. it is though nice to have a discussion here about british politics.

Amen to that.

yes, this is silly and as scotland allows free access to EU students at present, it suggests strongly that they don't really believe that a post-independence policy of charging english, welsh or northern irish students would not contravene EU law.

Yet they still put it in the white paper.

[C0ckney]

[QUOTE=kentonio;6276695]Fun stuff from the White Paper..







but..

Brilliant, so they're going to expect the UK to cooperate with anything they need, but when it comes to things that might benefit the UK, they're going to tell us to get ****ed.

Incidentally, if they think they're going to join the EU then they aren't going to be charging UK citizens for university, as it would contravene EU rules. Let's see what the SNP have to say about that..

yes, this is silly and as scotland allows free access to EU students at present, it suggests strongly that they don't really believe that a post-independence policy of charging english, welsh or northern irish students would not contravene EU law.

[C0ckney]

Absolutely true, but it's a little more serious when it's the same politicians that are trying to divide a country. If it goes wrong for Scotland it could go very, very wrong.

my point was that if the scottish government needs to raise more money, there are ways they do so.

whether they keep on break any promise is between them and the electorate.

The SNP aren't saying 'we don't know' they're making concrete claims that these things will not be an issue and they are not capable of making that claim honestly.

not from what i've seen. do have some examples in mind?

It's a joke quite frankly. If they want to use the currency but be at the whim of the UK interest rates etc then they can, but the idea that we would give them decision making power on the BoE makes no sense. Why would we? If Scotland is independent why would we give a **** about keeping their economy buoyant if that conflicts with the UK's needs?

what they're proposing is a continuation of the present situation in terms of currency and the bank of england. unless there is a significant divergence between the english and scottish economies in the future, i don't see how this would present a problem.

Why would a small nation require the protection of a huge defensive alliance? Why wouldn't they? We have no idea what shape the world is going to be in in decades to come, if there's another big war then how exactly is that little nation of 5 million people going to defend itself again an aggressor without an alliance?

i'm not convinced that basing defence policy on an unknown threat, from an unknown quarter, at an unknown point in the future, is wise.

What they are proposing is fine if all they need to do is defend themselves again fishing vessels encroaching on their territorial waters.

that seems a much more likely scenario than the above.

You seem pretty firmly in the Yes camp, and obviously that's your right, but I don't understand how people can take the SNP seriously when they repeatedly and openly lie their asses off about so many issues, and refuse to engage in any way on the negatives. It's all fluffy blue and white clouds and happy dancing in the street, and no care or consideration to the very real issues that an independent nation would face in a time of economic troubles.

i'm pretty neutral about the whole thing. i'm not scottish after all. in fact if i were scottish i would probably vote no, as i don't think the arguments in favour are that strong. it is though nice to have a discussion here about british politics.

there are some good arguments against independence, one or two have been touched upon in this thread. however, i will say though that many of the arguments presented in this debate are of very poor quality and simply the result of a lack of research or clear thinking, and rely on lazy stereotypes.

[C0ckney]

Reasonable, but not an empirical state of affairs.

i don't see how anyone can reasonably say that england subsudises scotland, which is what a few people have said in this thread.

[Dauphin]

it's a statement about the present which is backed up by scottish government figures. of course things might be adjusted in some way in any independence negotiations, but saying that oil extracted in scotland's waters is part of scotland's output is completely reasonable.

Reasonable, but not an empirical state of affairs.

[molly bloom]

A bunch of half-naked guys covered in blue paint and waving around swords would be enough to defend Scotland from her enemies.

William Wallace never covered himself in woad. Please ignore that pile of sh!te 'Braveheart' when discussing Scotland, even when doing so in a jocular fashion. I managed to see the film for free (part of an audience reviewing it) and still wanted my money back.

[molly bloom]

If the costs of daycare plus the cost of not spending as much time with your kid are less than the cost of missing work you will put your kid in daycare.

An alternative to subsidized creche or nursery care is the extended family- Granny and Grandad. Worked in my day.