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Alternative Historythreadi: Nohammad

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  • Alternative Historythreadi: Nohammad

    Since I recently posted about the possibility of interesting historical discussions not centered on hatred of dead Protestants, I thought I'd start one: what if Mohammad were never born, and Islam never existed? I'm aware that there's at least one book discussing this hypothetical (seen it at the library, will probably check it out next time), but the repercussions of that little change would be so huge and far-reaching that I thought I'd ask here.

    My guesses:

    The Arabs might have unified later, but I'm guessing they would have spent decades fighting each other, then emerged from the peninsula in dribs and drabs under this warlord or that. Byzantium and/or Persia would have played these factions off against each other, and various groups would have converted to Christianity or (maybe?) Zoroastrianism.

    Byzantium would have been much stronger. They would be tired, but elated by their crushing defeat of Persia under Heraclius, and Iconoclasm, if it happened at all, would be a much weaker movement. Emperors after Heraclius would have consolidated their frontier, then returned their attention to regaining control over traditional Roman lands. This of course would inevitably spell conflict with Western Europe.

    Persia would be slow to recover, but would eventually regain its strength. When the Turks appeared, it's anyone's guess whether they would align themselves more with Persia or Byzantium. I'm going to guess Byzantium, just because Persia would be directly in their way, and weaker-looking. So, problems for Persia there. And then, of course, they would bear the brunt of the Mongols when they arrived. But it seems entirely possible that Zoroastrian Persia would still be a recognizable part of the map today.

    I have no clue what Spain would look like. Except "different." There'd be no Pakistan, presumptively, and no Sikhs, I guess. Not sure what would have happened WRT the arts and sciences, except we wouldn't have words like "algebra" and "alchemy."

    Western Europe would quickly get into the thick of things with Byzantium, as noted, and it would be ugly. Especially since I imagine the Turks would be superficially Christianized, then invited to "settle" in the West. But the West would likely win in the end. There's no way all the umpteen Turkic groups, plus Tamerlane, could be turned into friends, and the same overabundance of heavy armor that impelled the Crusades could have been directed into conquest. There would still be a country called "Turkey," I think. It would just have a different religion.

    I just picked this subject because it's of personal interest, but what do you think? I have no intention of paying attention to Ben on this, natch, and I'd like to ask others not to quote him here.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    9/11 would have never happened. Bush would have never invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

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    • #3
      WAIT A MINUTE. No Crusades. No fall of Constantinople severing European trade links with Asia. Europeans never explore the world and discover America. America doesn't exist. Native Americans live there undisturbed until Europeans send satellites into orbit and take pictures and realize there's another continent. No Catholic genocide in the new world. Smallpox vaccines save millions after contact is established and Europeans spread their germs.

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      • #4
        If Eastern Christianity ended up in major conflict with Western Christianity then surely the new trade routes would still have been needed?

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        • #5
          nomohammed?

          god would have inspired someone else, thats what he does

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          • #6
            The Chinese are the first to get gunpowder. With the advantage of cannons they go on a conquest binge and then solidify their cultural and technological advantage by establishing a large trade network. Eventually, they achieve a space victory by launching a mission to Alpha Centauri in 1904.
            “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

            ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

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            • #7
              chinese did get gunpowder

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              • #8
                I think Byzantium would have still eventually fallen. The Turks would have still been around.
                "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pchang View Post
                  The Chinese are the first to get gunpowder. With the advantage of cannons they go on a conquest binge and then solidify their cultural and technological advantage by establishing a large trade network. Eventually, they achieve a space victory by launching a mission to Alpha Centauri in 1904.
                  To us, it is the BEAST.

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                  • #10
                    No Catholic genocide in the new world.
                    You know you're an anti-Catholic when...

                    Why would there even be an eastern Church, Elok?
                    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                    • #11
                      What role did Islam have in the refusal of the eastern churches to kowtow to the Bishop of Rome's self-proclaimed world dictatorship?
                      "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                      • #12
                        I see no reason why the Turks shouldn't have integrated into the Byzantine empire or Persia likewise.

                        Apart from that, taking events almost 1000 years later and just removing immediate muslim influence is stupid. No Mohammed = Arabs might still unite against weakened Persia/Byzantines. If they don't, what happens to the Visigothic empire? Mediterranean trade? And how is it there would be no Eastern church, Ben? The east-west split occured in the 4th century.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dr Strangelove View Post
                          I think Byzantium would have still eventually fallen. The Turks would have still been around.
                          But there's an interesting choice of what they might have been converted to- Greek Orthodoxy, Nestorianism, Russian Orthodoxy, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, or a salad of the above.


                          I seem to recall that the Mongol sack of Baghdad was urged on by the Nestorian Christian Turkic wife of a commander, who helped save Christians in Baghdad.
                          Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                          ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                          • #14
                            In a Moslem-free universe where Constantinople never fell, the Byzantine Empire has not only survived but flourished, developing technology at an earlier date than in our universe, and spreading its power and influence throughout the world. But Byzantium has enemies who are jealous of its glory and would like nothing better than to bring it down and loot its treasures.
                            Basil Argyros, an elite agent for the Byzantine Empire,…


                            More enjoyable than the Civil War/World War series- and shorter.
                            Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                            ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                            • #15


                              I remember reading that book a looong time ago. All I remember is that I read it and it was worth it - I think Mohammed's visions led to him becoming a Christian (& was sainted) or something and that's how history changed.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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