The Story about Sava was made up by Gays

[Elok]

If tolerance for gays causes demographic collapse, I really can't fathom how the Greeks ever ruled their own country, let alone the whole Eastern Mediterranean.

[molly bloom]

If tolerance for gays causes demographic collapse, I really can't fathom how the Greeks ever ruled their own country, let alone the whole Eastern Mediterranean.

I wouldn't mind, but apparently this toleration of non-procreative sex acts only had an effect in the Western Roman Empire, and not until several centuries after the death of the likes of Tiberius, Caligula and Nero, and Roman society's toleration for such sexual acts started well before the 5th Century A.D. .


He's entirely wrong about the demographic collapse too- archaeological evidence from places as far apart as Antakya (ancient Antioch) and Spain and France show the population didn't collapse, in many case it simply moved following the shift in bureaucratic power bases (as Rome grew less administratively important, so Trier, Nicomedia, Milan, Antioch, Sirmium, and so on grew more important).

Peasants weren't producing less either. But notably, the Gothic/Germanic tribes were getting better at agriculture and metal working and manufacturing, their society was changing, and their population booming. Add to that the threat of the Sassanid Empire (which required between a fifth and a quarter of the combined forces of the Western & Roman Empires' armies on permanent watch in the Middle East) and you have a vastly different 'barbarian' world facing the Romans in the 5th Century.

[Elok]

I think you left the Sassanids off your list of reasons why Belisarius wasn't able to win back the West. IIRC, he was only able to invade Italy and Carthage in the first place because Justinian was silly enough to believe in the "Eternal Peace" the Persians gave him, and pulled lots of troops off the Eastern frontier. Even if he'd trusted Belisarius completely, there simply weren't enough troops to hold the whole thing together.

EDIT: Belisarius was the man, though. Whenever I get him as a GG in Civ4, I make sure to use him as a warlord, even if the other two options would be more useful. He's too awesome to sit around at some military academy all day.

[Ben Kenobi]

there simply weren't enough troops to hold the whole thing together.

Killing off a quarter of your population through plague will do that for you.

[molly bloom]

I think you left the Sassanids off your list of reasons why Belisarius wasn't able to win back the West. .

Not really:

Add to that the threat of the Sassanid Empire (which required between a fifth and a quarter of the combined forces of the Western & Roman Empires' armies on permanent watch in the Middle East)

But don't forget the eunuch general, Narses.

[Elok]

I meant your original list, not the one in this thread. Not that it matters. I guess Narses did a decent job for an elderly man with minimal military experience. I'm not sure whether his complete lack of testosterone would help or hinder his martial skills.