Pope sends direct message to Ben

[DinoDoc]

That strikes me as one of the stupider uses of "war on ..." that I can recall. And that's a tough race to even get in to, let alone win ...

Your tax dollars at work.

[Aeson]

If you could work in a moral defense of the war against mountain pride, that would be great.[/FONT]

That strikes me as one of the stupider uses of "war on ..." that I can recall. And that's a tough race to even get in to, let alone win ...

[DinoDoc]

Oh gosh, that'll be another one of those bare faced lies you can't stop telling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us...gain.html?_r=0

Ben if your intent here was to attack O'care, these stories would have been better to highlight: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...98H14V20130918

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/08/22/local-governments-cutting-hours-over-obamacare-costs/

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-09-20/obamacares-fast-food-menu-cutting-workers-hours-for-some-slower-growth-for-others

[DinoDoc]

Acts 2 - 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Question from the back of the class

I fail to see support for the obvious point you seem to be going for here. The Bible in general including these verses seem to be talking about private willingness to help the poor rather than State coercion in forcing the issue. If your intent is to defend the morality of the dole, we could start with an argument that the Welfare State has not become what FDR warned against and turned into a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. If you could work in a moral defense of the war against mountain pride, that would be great.

[kentonio]

Obamacare has actually lowered the number of people with healthcare coverage.

Oh gosh, that'll be another one of those bare faced lies you can't stop telling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us...gain.html?_r=0

You were rude to Nikolai before you checked yourself.

He then apologized to Nikolai. How many times have people apologized to you after being rude to you?

[kentonio]

Matthew 19, in the word Cleave. "For they are no longer two but one", for contraception.

That's it? That's supposed to be a prohibition against contraception? That's pathetic.

For abortion, we see Luke, where Christ in the womb was acknowledge as Christ himself. That his life began while he was in his mothers womb, and not at birth. The consequence being that personhood doesn't begin at birth either. And "before I formed you in the womb I knew you", in Isaiah.

Christ is supposed to be an incarnation of god. How does knowing god before Christ is born, have anything to do with some idea of a point where life starts?

You are free to reject all of these. But once again, I hit the nail on the head.

I think you may have been hit on the head at some point, if you think this stuff proves your case.

[kentonio]

I see. So honesty, "Christ actually teaches that sodomy is a sin". Humility, "You should follow what Christ actually teaches and not what you sincerely wish were true", and third, compassion, "Following Christ and repenting from sin will improve your life."

I suspect that you see honesty as, "preaches in accordance with my values", Humility as, "there isn't an absolute moral code" and compassion as, "sin away, it doesn't matter".

Honesty: You're a liar. You deliberately deceive and tell lies.
Humility: You are extremely arrogant. You hold yourself as above others, show off regularly and exhibit pride.
Compassion: You have very little for those less fortunate, and hold pointless doctrine above basic humanity.

You're basically the opposite of Christs teachings.

Yes, he truly believed that killing millions of people was a good thing if it brought about the collectivization of the people. Which is why he stated that we are judged as individuals and unless our personal conduct is up to snuff, we will not be going to heaven.

The fact you equate socialism with 'killing millions of people' is so ridiculous as to defy belief. We're talking a whole new level of retarded even for you.

He did. Which is why he tried to save them. He said, and argued that rich people are inclined to trust themselves and not God. Apparently all rich people are conservatives.

He tried to save everyone, but by encouraging everyone to give away their worldly goods to those in need, and a little quote about the 'eye of a needle' which you might have heard of, he was not exactly ambiguous about his feelings towards the rich. What is really funny is that you take lines that are genuinely ambiguous and use them to defend some of your more extreme views, yet something like this which is absolutely clear you pretend is something different.

Thank you for admitting that you are full of crap.

I'm not a Christian you muppet. Why exactly would I support Christian causes over socially liberal ones?

You've already admitted that when there's a conflict between lefty cause de jour and Christ that you obey Marx and not Christ. You aren't a conservative.

You think that social liberalism has anything to do with Marx? Seriously? I know you're a dumbass, but even you can't be that utterly moronic.

[Ben Kenobi]

Just remind me exactly where the bible prohibits contraception and abortion.

Matthew 19, in the word Cleave. "For they are no longer two but one", for contraception. For abortion, we see Luke, where Christ in the womb was acknowledge as Christ himself. That his life began while he was in his mothers womb, and not at birth. The consequence being that personhood doesn't begin at birth either. And "before I formed you in the womb I knew you", in Isaiah.

You are free to reject all of these. But once again, I hit the nail on the head.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think we're a better judge of what we mean than you.

I don't disagree with this. However, I do believe that you have cause to lie about what you believe to get the outcome that you want here.

You use your religion as an excuse to be a jerk about it.

You were rude to Nikolai before you checked yourself.

And this is where you should take the cue from the pope. He's not saying that those things are OK, he's just saying that it shouldn't be such a focus (another way of saying that Catholics shouldn't be such dicks about it)

He is saying that these aren't the only teachings which the secular world despises. I agree with this. However, I also think that where there is a sin in particular that is not only endorsed, but extolled, that it is our duty to challenge it. The secular world isn't very big on this whole voluntary charity thing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Interestingly, Jesus and his disciples didn't really work all the much . They fished a few, but they seemingly had a lot of people give them food.

Anyways, Paul is probably speaking to close knit community where some folks feel they don't have to work because Christ is coming soon. The early Christian communities, as like the Acts Church held everything in common and gave to those who had need. The notion is that everyone should chip in in these communes.

Where is he stating that the state itself should force people to give some of their money away to benefit those who the state believes are protected classes? I don't see it. The calling is for Christians to do so voluntarily. "God loves a cheerful giver." We should give not because we are forced to by the state, but because we believe we should help our fellow man.

my Eerdman's Bible Commentary

Interesting. A Magisterium of one.

Also a lot of welfare payments are going to people who do work, but in lower paying jobs . Since they are working - welfare be welcome!

Umm, this is called fraud by most folks. Yes, many welfare collections are coming from people who work in lower paying job for benefits less than to the people they are paying. This is profoundly wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually the Catholic Church is perfectly fine with government programs designed to help the poor. The US Bishops pushed hard for the ACA prior to not being able to have a carve out for the contraception portions - though they are more than fine with national health care programs (after all, the Old Testament has plenty of rules in it for helping out the poor, such as gleaning, which were mandates, not you can do it if you want).

This is true. I, and many other Catholics feel that the USCCB is insufficiently obedient to the Church as a whole. The USCCB has endorsed people who support abortion, contraception, in the past and continues to act as if it and not the pope is the ultimate authority. If you're looking for what the church teaches, I would suggest generally ignoring the USCCB altogether and looking abroad.

As for this - I agree with regexcellence. Forcing people to buy 'healthcare' is not a proscription that advances individual liberty nor does it provide for the dignity of the person. How does it help a person if they lose their excellent coverage when an employer drops them? Obamacare has actually lowered the number of people with healthcare coverage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Honesty, humility and compassion would be the first three that jump immediately to mind, although there are probably many more.

I see. So honesty, "Christ actually teaches that sodomy is a sin". Humility, "You should follow what Christ actually teaches and not what you sincerely wish were true", and third, compassion, "Following Christ and repenting from sin will improve your life."

I suspect that you see honesty as, "preaches in accordance with my values", Humility as, "there isn't an absolute moral code" and compassion as, "sin away, it doesn't matter".

Christ was the biggest socialist out there

Yes, he truly believed that killing millions of people was a good thing if it brought about the collectivization of the people. Which is why he stated that we are judged as individuals and unless our personal conduct is up to snuff, we will not be going to heaven.

yet you don't actually give a **** about that.

About what? The fact that you've remade Christ in your own image? No, I frankly don't give a **** about your perception of Christ insofar as a guideline as to how to govern my own life. I am concerned about your perception of Christ insofar as it denies you access to salvation.

Like too many American 'Christians' you find stupid little ambiguous passages in the bible and twist them to fit your own desired ends. Just like those ****ers who try and claim that Christ loved rich people.

He did. Which is why he tried to save them. He said, and argued that rich people are inclined to trust themselves and not God. Apparently all rich people are conservatives.

Of course I praise liberal causes over Christianity

Thank you for admitting that you are full of crap.

I don't recognize America's brand of selfish, soulless right wing extremists as actually being conservative.

You've already admitted that when there's a conflict between lefty cause de jour and Christ that you obey Marx and not Christ. You aren't a conservative.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Acts 2 - 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.



Interestingly, Jesus and his disciples didn't really work all the much . They fished a few, but they seemingly had a lot of people give them food.

Anyways, Paul is probably speaking to close knit community where some folks feel they don't have to work because Christ is coming soon. The early Christian communities, as like the Acts Church held everything in common and gave to those who had need. The notion is that everyone should chip in in these communes.

edit: Also interesting, my Eerdman's Bible Commentary (a fairly conservative text, mind) indicates that the Greek 'ataktoi' which is defined as idlers or lazy in some translations has a rabblerousing component. They are troublemakers, not just economic parasites. Which also tends to follow the chapter (Paul is saying listen to what we've been telling you and obey).

Also a lot of welfare payments are going to people who do work, but in lower paying jobs . Since they are working - welfare be welcome!

[DinoDoc]

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. - 2 Thessalonians 3:10

[Felch]

(after all, the Old Testament has plenty of rules in it for helping out the poor, such as gleaning, which were mandates, not you can do it if you want).

Also the OT is big on bludgeoning people to death with rocks.