Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Elok]

Well, what precisely does the political history of Argentina have to do with N35t0r's opinions? You don't get to act huffy about irrelevant comments when they're made in response to your own non sequitur, sorry.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, what precisely does the political history of Argentina have to do with N35t0r's opinions?

Arguing that the monarchy (which was established by force), a thousand years ago is less legitimate than the concept of Democracy which was established by the American Revolution, also through force makes no sense to me.

NES seems to believe that democracy magically establishes itself.

You don't get to act huffy about irrelevant comments when they're made in response to your own non sequitur, sorry.

Nes was closer to the mark in attacking the British Monarchy than you are in attacking the Revolution. You really think I'm a fan of it?

[N35t0r]

I don't think we were big fans of Juan Peron or subsequent Argentinian administrations.

Perón was a relatively minor participant in the '73 coup, and thereafter the military took power to oust him, since he wasn't particularly US-friendly...

[kentonio]

Er, before you get too smug, how much of Argentina's turbulent past is due to the U.S. supporting their dictators in the name of fighting communism? I'm going to randomly guess, based on our history in the region, on an amount between "a fair amount" and "most of it."

You'll be looking for Operation Condor, sir.

[MOBIUS]

Makes you proud to be American *sniff*...

[molly bloom]

She was a ruler and she was also Elizabeth's heir apparent.

She had been a ruler. She ceased to be a ruler when her son became King. That's how it works in other monarchies, not just the Scottish one. Remember. Elizabeth II had a Queen Mother or Queen Dowager... Boy, you're dim.

This is not difficult Molly. Elizabeth was a kinslayer.

Mary Stuart was a distant relative of the Queen whose land she was resident in, and who had aimed at the removal of England's monarch- that selfsame Queen. Elizabeth was eventually driven to sign her death warrant after numerous plots aimed at putting Mary on the throne, doing away with Elizabeth et cetera...

I'm not sure how Elizabeth felt about the Catholic Church's view of her- not much, I expect.

Elizabeth was illegitimate, as Catherine was still alive when Elizabeth was born.

Elizabeth's mother was married to Henry VIII when she was born. Next.

And yet William III was. Odd that. Apparently England was a fief of the Dutch

Repetition of a falsehood doesn't make it true. There are ample online dictionarie which explain the meaning of 'fief', 'fiefdom', 'feu' and 'feudal' : I suggest you better your miserable education by making acquaintance with several of them.

Failing that, Heer's 'The Mediaeval World' has a usful description of feudalism in the Mediaeval era.

We start with the Queen of Scots. We add a dash of Thomas Percy, the Earl of Northumberland. That's two of the nobility she executed.

Treason and rebellion. Not their faith alone. I'm asking for facts, not your unsupported opinion.


The treason statute dated from Plantagenet days, by the way.

Actually, yes, he did. He set himself up as the head of the COE, and declared that the COE was the established church. Go read the Act of Supremacy I've cited in every single post.

You've mentioned it by title- you haven't cited it. I'd have been surprised if you did.

I find it telling that you regard Wycliffe and the Lollards as evidence of persecution

Were they persecuted by Richard II, Henry IV & Henry V ? Yes.


I rest my case.

[MOBIUS]

You may have rested your case, but Ben will come right back at you. Tenaciously ignoring every beat down, because he knows that sooner or later you'll give up and that's how he *wins*...

[Ming]

Nahhh... usually he just disappears from the thread and starts some other lame argument in another thread.. until he gets beat down again... rinse and repeat

[MOBIUS]

I do wonder why anyone would put themselves though it all. Being continuously proved wrong in every subject by everyone...

I actually feel sorry for the guy...

[N35t0r]

I do wonder why anyone would put themselves though it all. Being continuously proved wrong in every subject by everyone...

I actually feel sorry for the guy...

Yeah, I used to. Not anymore.

[MOBIUS]

I think the worst bit is the constant lying, especially when he professes to be a Christian...

[Ben Kenobi]

She had been a ruler. She ceased to be a ruler when her son became King.

She was still a royal.

That's how it works in other monarchies, not just the Scottish one. Remember. Elizabeth II had a Queen Mother or Queen Dowager... Boy, you're dim.

Umm, this is not the same thing. Are you really this dim? The Queen Mother isn't the same as Mary Queen of Scots. The Queen Mother had no claim to the English throne. Mary's claim is superior to Elizabeth's, fwiw. Hers is legitimate.

Mary Stuart was a distant relative

Mary Queen of Scots was the Daughter of the sister of Elizabeth's dad. That makes Mary Queen of Scots, Elizabeth's first cousin. That's not 'distant relative'. That's kin. She was also Elizabeth's heir apparent. This makes Elizabeth a kinslayer.

I'm not sure how Elizabeth felt about the Catholic Church's view of her- not much, I expect.

Elizabeth persecuted the Church. It's not really hard to figure out her attitude towards it. She hated it and hated Catholics.

Elizabeth's mother was married to Henry VIII when she was born.

Elizabeth's father was still married to Catherine of Aragon when she was born. Being born to the King's mistress doesn't make you legitimate.

Repetition of a falsehood doesn't make it true.

William III was Dutch.
William III was sole ruler of England.
England did not have the franchise when William III reigned. Hence, England was a fief of the Dutch.

Treason and rebellion. Not their faith alone.

Treason, according to the Act of Supremacy, included attending Mass. The Act of Supremacy was enforced by Elizabeth Ergo, Faith was sufficient to qualify one for Treason in the Elizabethan era.

The treason statute dated from Plantagenet days, by the way.

How about that Act of Supremacy that you're studiously evading?

You've mentioned it by title- you haven't cited it. I'd have been surprised if you did.

I've mentioned it in every post. You're the historical expert, Molly. Are you telling me that you are unfamiliar with it's content?

Were they persecuted by Richard II, Henry IV & Henry V ? Yes.

Were Catholics persecuted by Elizabeth? Also yes.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nahhh... usually he just disappears from the thread and starts some other lame argument in another thread.. until he gets beat down again... rinse and repeat

Gosh, Ming. How does it feel to be wrong?

[kentonio]

Elizabeth persecuted the Church. It's not really hard to figure out her attitude towards it. She hated it and hated Catholics.

Which presumably is why she said..

There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith. All else is a dispute over trifles.

..also..

I have no desire to make windows into mens souls

Clearly the words of a woman consumed by hatred for the Catholics.

[Ben Kenobi]

Clearly the words of a woman consumed by hatred for the Catholics.

Ask Thomas Percy what he thought of her 'mercy'. Or any of the laypeople and priests she executed.

She believed that there was just one Faith just as Louis XIV believed there was just one king.