Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Ben Kenobi]

So .. women who have light periods are (or at least are more likely to be) murderers, right? Or is it just God who made them that way murdering babies?

It's all got to do with how the pill works. It doesn't prevent contraception. One of it's mechanisms is to harden the endometrium.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because the Christian Church has never had a position which later turned out to be shameful and later considered unBiblical. *cough* slavery (btw, has any told Augustine of Hippo yet?)

You equate opposition to sodomy with slavery?

[Sava]

BK... here are some more satan worshipers like you

[Aeson]

It's all got to do with how the pill works. It doesn't prevent contraception. One of it's mechanisms is to harden the endometrium.

So what you are saying is that if a woman's endometrium is for any reason not accepting of an egg, that she is committing murder?

[kentonio]

Right. Nothing says, "I want to be with you forever" like putting on the condom and putting it in the trash after. Disposable sex, disposable people.

Spoken like the clueless virgin you are. The idea that a loving committed couple is somehow disposable because they chose to control their chances of having children is about as idiotic and mind-numbingly stupid as it gets.

To you a woman is nothing more than a maid and a baby making machine. Which is why you're never, ever going to get laid unless you start hanging out outside the mental health wards.

[MOBIUS]

That's right fellas, unless the bible specifically spells it out that something is sinful, it's permitted. What could possibly go wrong with a theology like that?

What about the silly stuff that the bible actually mentions as sinful?

[Elok]

Well, BK, since you just said "Billings," I'm going to assume you mean "Alexandra Billings, transgendered thespian," which was one of the dozens of options Wiki's disambiguate page gave me when I entered that name. It doesn't say anything about her(?) birth-control opinions. Presumptively, they include some variant on the rhythm method which the RCC does approve of. Any fertility-monitoring birth control method is going to depend on skipping sex around the time of ovulation, so my point stands: the woman's missing out on the days she's most likely to want sex. Or else she's maybe going to spend the next nine months pregnant, which does all sorts of wacky, unpredictable things to a lady's libido.

Or they could just use a condom during those fertile times, with no discernible negative repercussions for their relationship unless they're too poor to buy a little piece of latex without straining the budget. I'm sure they'll learn to live with the devastating emotional implications of throwing away the condom, whatever those are. In my experience, they tend to make the trash smell a lot worse, so there's that. They might hurt the relationship by making the man take out the trash more frequently than he'd like to.

[molly bloom]

Right. I'm the go to person for dissent from Catholicism and Catholic teachings on Apolyton. You've nailed me 100 percent.

I missed out on your crucifixion. Boo hoo.

[Berzerker]

If you don't want kids don't get married.

but you said we were made for marriage and anything less than the ideal is a sin

Think about it! "Two becoming one flesh". Hrrmmm what could that possibly mean?!

I did think about it, in the bigotry thread I said:

I figured the two into one flesh referred to the child but the prostitute verse casts doubt on that interpretation.

and you explained why it didn't refer to a child:

Nope. Two becoming one flesh talks about the union of a man and a woman in marriage.

So which is it? Marriage, conceiving a child or paying a prostitute?

And visiting a prostitute is neither marriage or conceiving a child, but you still think it qualifies as 2 becoming 1 flesh. Furthermore, when the narrator was talking about Adam and Eve he said 2 flesh becomes 1 flesh before they conceived Cain. Now its possible the narrator said that already knowing Adam and Eve did have kids, but then those words weren't spoken at the time Adam and Eve became one flesh but were added later.

[regexcellent]

I think he means if you don't want kids don't have sex (and by extension, don't get married, outside of which don't have sex and inside of which you are obligated to have sex, without birth control)

[Ben Kenobi]

I think he means if you don't want kids don't have sex (and by extension, don't get married, outside of which don't have sex and inside of which you are obligated to have sex, without birth control)

Yep, that's exactly it. You claim you 'don't want kids', but you want the sex so lets test the depth of that 'conviction'.

[Ben Kenobi]

but you said we were made for marriage and anything less than the ideal is a sin

We as a collective, yes. But some are not and have a different calling.

I figured the two into one flesh referred to the child but the prostitute verse casts doubt on that interpretation.
and you explained why it didn't refer to a child:

Two becoming one flesh is the union (through sex) in marriage.

So which is it? Marriage, conceiving a child or paying a prostitute?

Neither. It's the union.

And visiting a prostitute is neither marriage or conceiving a child, but you still think it qualifies as 2 becoming 1 flesh.

Christ himself says that the one who unites himself with a prostitute becomes one with said prostitute.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, BK, since you just said "Billings,"

Your argument was, "the rhythm method does X". If you want to know what Catholics who practice NFP actually use, look up the Billings Ovulation Method.

Any fertility-monitoring birth control method is going to depend on skipping sex around the time of ovulation, so my point stands: the woman's missing out on the days she's most likely to want sex. Or else she's maybe going to spend the next nine months pregnant, which does all sorts of wacky, unpredictable things to a lady's libido.

As opposed to Hormonal contraception which plays havok with a woman's natural cycle. I'm not a proponent of NFP, but it is approved by the Catholic church, and this is how to go about it through Billings.

Or they could just use a condom during those fertile times, with no discernible negative repercussions for their relationship

Yes, there are discernable consequences. You're far more likely to divorce. Having to refrain from sex at certain times is a burden, but that's only if you don't want kids.

[Ben Kenobi]

Spoken like the clueless virgin you are.

I'm tending to side with Christians for the first nineteen centuries.

The idea that a loving committed couple is somehow disposable because they chose to control their chances of having children

The point is this - you're refusing to commit to your partner. You're holding back an essential part of you from your partner in exchange for sex anytime. How is this any different then going outside the relationship and getting sex from someone else?

To you a woman is nothing more than a maid and a baby making machine.

I've simply said, if I'm going to get married to someone, it will be because I want to have children with her, and because she's the most devastatingly beautiful woman I've ever known. I would feel that she's my soulmate and that I would love her forever.

Why would I want to use a condom with her when I want to have children that are just as amazing as her?

Which is why you're never, ever going to get laid unless you start hanging out outside the mental health wards.

Right, because 'getting laid' is the same as making love to my wife.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what you are saying is that if a woman's endometrium is for any reason not accepting of an egg, that she is committing murder?

There's a difference between menstruation, and what occurs under hormonal contraception, where the embryo dies when the endometrium hardens. If she were to conceive without the use of hormonal contraception, the embryo would implant. Hormonal contraception (one of it's functions), is to make it so that even if contraception occurs, that the embryo cannot implant. Again - the only difference between this and a later term abortion is the timing and the age of the unborn child.

This is not the same as menstruation where there is no conception whatsoever.