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13 years on what are your thoughts on the U.S. presidential election of 2000?

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  • So if you've only got two parties, with (for the sake of argument) relatively comparable levels of competence, resources, and attractiveness of message, how is the popular vote unfair?

    What if high-concentration population centers produce a split, like Cook County and the surrounding collar counties usually do?

    Oh wait, I forgot, Cook County is the evil home of Machine Politics, which only Democrats engage in, so let's just talk about that, rather than focus on the FACT that the GOP has lost its previous iron grip on its traditional strongholds in Lake, Kane, Will, DuPage, and McHenry counties. In 2012, Romney lost them all save McHenry. He lost Cook County by about a million, and lost the state by nearly that same margin. (Romney actually narrowly won "the rest of Illinois," despite his terrible performance in the collar counties.) In 2000, GWBush lost Illinois to Kerry, but easily carried all 5 collar counties and won non-Cook Illinois by about a half-million votes.

    Now, you can argue that Romney had no business trying to swing votes in suburban and downstate IL, but the simple fact is that the GOP lost a lot of ground in the state by ignoring those areas, dropping multiple key House districts in the process. Chicago hasn't changed (much), but the surrounding area has. Lake County, where I live, has moved from intensely conservative to palpably progressive over the past 20 years. The swing has been even more shocking in DuPage, which typically carried a 65% GOP vote in presidential elections 1960-1988.

    I would estimate that the GOP has let about a half-million votes of margin slip off the table in Illinois, mostly in suburban Chicago, basically because they judged the state was not in play electorally. Heck, there are actually plenty of Republicans in suburban Cook, but there's no effort to get them out and reduce the Dem advantage to manageable levels. This is particularly amusing/short-sighted in light of historical context.

    Wiki:
    From 1920 until 1972, the state was carried by the victor of presidential elections - 14 elections. In fact, Illinois was long seen as a national bellwether, supporting the winner in every election in the 20th Century except for 1916 and 1976. By contrast, Illinois has trended more toward the Democratic party and such, has voted (Dem) in the last six elections. In 2000, George W. Bush became the first Republican to win the presidency without carrying Illinois.
    I would suggest that, should there be a popular election of the president, there would be a big upside to the GOP working to reclaim those previously guaranteed votes.

    I would further suggest that, in our era of increasingly targeted messaging, the traditional geographic advantages of parsing votes by population density would actually be reduced in a non-EC world. Work to split the urban/suburban vote and a decent plurality of rural voters could swing an election.
    Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
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    • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
      Again, the math for 2012 shows that 60 percent of Obama's total vote margin in victory came from California alone. He didn't need any of the other 49 states.



      Let's go back a bit.

      2008. Obama won by 9.4 million votes. California contributed 3.2 million to his win total, over a third. New York state contributed more than 2 million to the total.

      Obama needed 2 states this time, CA and NY to put him over the top.

      2004, Bush had a 3 million advantage. 1.7 of which was Texas.

      So three elections, only 4 states mattered by your system. CA, CA, TX, and NY.

      2000, Gore had a 540k popular vote advantage.

      States with a greater than 300k vote swing: CA, IL and NY.

      So in the narrowest election ever, still, only three states were decisive. That brings our total, in 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2012, 4 elections the following states are decisive:

      CA, NY, CA, CA, NY, IL, TX.



      No, it's a reflection of what liberals want because they are sore that they lost in 2000 and the evil Bush got elected because their man couldn't deliver his own home state of Tennessee.
      Obama received 55 electoral votes and 7,854,285 popular votes from California. That is 16.57% of his total electoral votes and 11.92% of his popular votes. If he had of only won California, he would have lost the election. So right there, the Electoral College is making it easier for Obama to continue his LiberalFascistSocialistMuslimIlluminatee Agenda. It isn't protecting rural communities from him, it is actually helping him keep control.

      Obama won a decisive 60.24% of the votes in California, but he won by larger percentages in six other states and DC.

      Out of the seven swing states in this election (FL, OH, VA, CO, PA, NH and IA) his biggest percentage was in Iowa, with 51.99% of the votes. If you take his winning votes in all of those states and give them to Romney here's how it would change the election.

      Obama would still win the popular vote 64930508 to 61901304 (real life 65,899,660 to 60,932,152) yet Romney would now crush him in the Electoral vote 233 to 305 (real life 332 206)

      However if you gave Obama's 3,014,327 winning votes in CA to Romney here's what you'd get

      Obama would now lose the popular vote 62885333 to 63946479 but Obama would still win the Electoral Vote 277 to 261, so in this election, California didn't matter. Romney could have won every single vote in California and still lost the election.

      I started this thread. I didn't vote for Gore. I voted for McCain in the Republican primary and then Nader (as a protest vote/hope he gets enough votes so that a third party can hit 5% and get matching public funds in 2004 vote). I am not a die hard Liberal Democrat. I have some views from each of the parties, and many views that NEITHER parties endorse.

      EDIT: And if you did give all of Obama's 7,854,285 in California to Romney, then you'd have Obama losing the popular vote 58,045,375 to Romney's 68,786,437 but as mentioned earlier Obama would still win the election with 277 to 261 electoral votes.
      Last edited by korn469; June 2, 2013, 17:16.

      Comment


      • The EC isn't meant to be democratic and using such appeals against it seem silly. The proper question to be asking is what is the point of it in light of the laws in many if not all States against being a so-called faithless elector. It would seem to me that either one or the other has to go.

        Edit: Of course I'm also for a repeal of the 17th Amendment.
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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        • JRabbit, there have been a number of post-election articles on how poor Romney's get out the vote system was and how, like you said, he left a lot of votes on the table simply by not running standard GOTV efforts. To compare Obama's team improved upon Clinton's old GOTV system allowing them to target neighborhoods block by block with incredible data bases which allowed them to concentrate their efforts in the areas where they could get the most turn out increases per man hour. That was a formible organizational advantage and Slate has an article which went into it at some detail.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
            The EC isn't meant to be democratic and using such appeals against it seem silly. The proper question to be asking is what is the point of it in light of the laws in many if not all States against being a so-called faithless elector. It would seem to me that either one or the other has to go.

            Edit: Of course I'm also for a repeal of the 17th Amendment.
            Ok, if the purpose of the Electoral College isn't meant to be an instrument of democracy then what is it's purpose?

            Is it meant to ensure that the candidate who wins the most popular votes wins the election?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure that the candidate who wins the most state elections wins the election?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure that the candidates spend their resources in a majority of the states?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure small states play a decisive role in determining the presidency?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure that candidates spend a majority of time in the rural parts of a state?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure only liberal candidates have an advantage?

            If so it fails.

            Is it meant to ensure only conservative candidates have an advantage?

            If so it fails.

            Please tell me what the purpose of it is?

            If judging from your statement about faithless electors, its purpose to elect a group of wise sages, far more capable of selecting a president than the people, then why don't the electors run, instead of the candidates? Also why don't these electors have their deliberative, president finding functions laid out in the constitution.

            As of the 2012 presidential election, there has been only one occasion when faithless electors prevented an expected winner from winning the electoral college vote: in December 1836, twenty-three faithless electors prevented Richard Mentor Johnson, the expected candidate, from winning the Vice Presidency. However, Johnson was promptly elected Vice President by the U.S. Senate in February 1837; therefore, faithless electors have never changed the expected final outcome of the entire election process.
            Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

            So if the purpose of the Electoral College is to select a group of people who will make an independent choice for president then guess what?

            Once again, if so it fails.

            If you are in favor of the repeal of the 17th amendment, then I bet that the 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments also really grind your gears don't they?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by korn469 View Post
              Ok, if the purpose of the Electoral College isn't meant to be an instrument of democracy then what is it's purpose?
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elector...ited_States%29
              Like I said, pure democracy wasn't high on the minds of the people who came up with the system. I don't have much attachment to it though. It just seems to me that if the State's are going to enact laws against so-called faithless electors that people should put their big boy pants on and begin the process of removing the existence of the system rather than winking and nodding at it.
              If you are in favor of the repeal of the 17th amendment, then I bet that the 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments also really grind your gears don't they?
              What do these have to do with the belief that the 17th Amendment was a mistake?
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elector...ited_States%29
                Like I said, pure democracy wasn't high on the minds of the people who came up with the system. I don't have much attachment to it though. It just seems to me that if the State's are going to enact laws against so-called faithless electors that people should put their big boy pants on and begin the process of removing the existence of the system rather than winking and nodding at it.
                What do these have to do with the belief that the 17th Amendment was a mistake?
                DinoDoc

                If the Virginia Plan had of been enacted, then we would have basically a parliament with the president acting as the prime minister does in Britain or the Chancellor does in Germany. Yes that would hurt the three branch theory of Government and separations of powers, but, if the U.S. functioned more like Britain or Germany I could live with that. It would mean less gridlock, though I'm not sure if the bicameral legislature would work in this setup. My biggest worry is that currently Congress can function maintaining the status quo without fear of voter reprisal even with a single digit or low double digit approval rating. So we'd have an even more urgent need to have a better way of throwing the bums out than we do today.

                If James Madison popular election plan had been enacted, I could deal with that. Democracy and a strong separation of powers like we currently have. Same gridlock. More democracy.

                Sadly, slavery prevented the popular elections idea from being acceptable to the South. Now we have a broken old relic of a system made to be a slavery compromise.

                If we were going to have an undemocratic committee that selected (drafted) the president then I would want the following

                1) It would need to be a meritocracy. To get on this committee you would have to have proven yourself in some way, relative to being able to pick good leaders. No voting for random unknown Electors.

                2) It should be composed of a group of nonpartisan members.

                3) It should contain a group of successful: human resource managers, military leaders, athletic team general managers, talent scouts, economists, sociologists, neuroscientists, economists, ethicists, theologians, business managers, industrial psychologists, and statisticians (like Bill James, the Moneyball guy). Basically a group of people with proven ability to either select good leaders, or define good decision making practices, or determine what a good decision is.

                4) Unlike Dick Cheney, this group shouldn't be able to look for a candidate, then determine that one of them would make the best candidate.

                5) They should have to meticulously document their deliberative process, and make it all publically available after the selection. They should then have to submit a yearly evaluation of their pick to the American public.

                6) etc. etc.

                And the reason I said you were against those other amendments is because it seems you are anti-democracy and all of those amendments expanded the electorate.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by korn469 View Post
                  And the reason I said you were against those other amendments is because it seems you are anti-democracy and all of those amendments expanded the electorate.
                  If you want democracy, the House is the proper place for that. I see nothing wrong with the idea that Senators represent the States and being selected by the Legislatures of said states. What you think that has to do with denying blacks the right to vote for instance, I wouldn't be able to fathom.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                    If you want democracy, the House is the proper place for that. I see nothing wrong with the idea that Senators represent the States and being selected by the Legislatures of said states. What you think that has to do with denying blacks the right to vote for instance, I wouldn't be able to fathom.
                    I would not say that the House is the proper place for Democracy. First off like John Miller said much earlier in the thread, it is highly gerrymandered and they have other advantages. Most incumbents in congress, especially in the House, win. Congress has rarely had a 50% approval rating or higher.

                    source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/156662/co...-time-low.aspx

                    Yet when was the last time more than half of the house lost their seats in an election? I'm not sure, but certainly not since 64.

                    source: http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/reelect.php

                    I just figured that if you were ok with disenfranchising 99%+ of American voters for Senate, then disenfranchising non-whites, women, people who can't pay a poll tax, residents of D.C., and people under 21 wouldn't be that big of a deal.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by korn469 View Post
                      I would not say that the House is the proper place for Democracy. First off like John Miller said much earlier in the thread, it is highly gerrymandered and they have other advantages. Most incumbents in congress, especially in the House, win. Congress has rarely had a 50% approval rating or higher.
                      You are making an argument for changing the way districts are craved out (one which I would be willing to agree to) rather than making an argument against my position.
                      I just figured that if you were ok with disenfranchising 99%+ of American voters for Senate, then disenfranchising non-whites, women, people who can't pay a poll tax, residents of D.C., and people under 21 wouldn't be that big of a deal.
                      That's an impressive amount of straw men.
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                        You are making an argument for changing the way districts are craved out (one which I would be willing to agree to) rather than making an argument against my position.That's an impressive amount of straw men.
                        If the reelection rate in the house more closely corresponded to congress's approval rate, then I would have more confidence in them. Though you may be right about it is the way districts are carved out, but I think there are more advantages to being an incumbent than simply gerrymandering. Whatever happened to those term limits proposed in Newt's Contract with America?

                        I will concede you the Straw Men point.

                        Comment


                        • Term limits are a horribad idea.

                          Ask people for an approval rating for Congress, and you'll get about 10%. Ask people what they think about their particular congressperson, and it'll be over 50%. It is all those other idiots; my congressperson is one of the good ones.

                          People are ****ing stupid. That is why our government is the way it is.
                          "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                          "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

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                          • Obama won a decisive 60.24% of the votes in California, but he won by larger percentages in six other states and DC.
                            That's the neat thing about a popular vote. Percentages are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you won 50 percent plus 1 in Georgia. It does matter if you have a 70-30 blowout in CA and a margin of 2-3 million votes.
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                            • Guy,

                              I won't argue you about people are stupid or that's why we have the government we do.

                              I don't think 8 years in the house and 12 years in the senate (independent of each other, so a single person could serve 20 years in congress) would be too restrictive, but it would still be better than we have now.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                                That's the neat thing about a popular vote. Percentages are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you won 50 percent plus 1 in Georgia. It does matter if you have a 70-30 blowout in CA and a margin of 2-3 million votes.
                                I don't get your point. If a guy wins a blowout in California and other places (because 100% in California and 0% everywhere else doesn't equal popular vote landslide, it equals loss) because he'd still need some blow outs in other places in order to win the popular vote. What's the difference between winning a blowout in California, or winning one in Texas and Florida? In the end, it takes more people in the country voting for the winner, and what is wrong with that?

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