It should be possible to ungive the Noble Prize

[Jon Miller]

In South Africa there is pretty heavy punishment against both African and White (and other) criminals. I spent a bit of time talking to a senior police officer. He probably shot and killed more people per year than the average US solder did over the last 20.

JM

[Jon Miller]

White people were not killed in South Africa and their property was not confiscated.

Because of Mandela.

If Mandela had not been there, I agree, that is likely what would have happened.

Your statements are sick, I think it is because you are trolling or stupid.

JM

[molly bloom]

Mandela should be deprived for several reasons.

One, he's a terrorist. He killed people to further his ambitions and goals. .

He did , did he ? Who and when ?

Secondly, Begin and Shamir were called terrorists. So was Eamonn de Valera. I believe even in the American War Of Independence people died and terror was used. What's the big difference ?

Of course you have the luxury of never having lived under a totalitarian state- which apartheid South Africa was. To achieve freedom in neighbouring Portuguese colonies (also run by a racist rightwing dictatorship) Africans had to use violence- the Portuguese dictatorship was not amenable to any kind of suggestion of civil rights and peaceful transition to self-rule. Neither was the apartheid regime.

Two, yes, South Africa is a ****hole. It used to be a decent place.

So I'll ask you again. When was it a 'decent place', for whom, and how was it decent, and who paid the price for this 'decency' ?

where White South Africans can suffer and die and be killed just because they happen to live in South Africa.

So are you suggesting that Mandela was directly responsible for killing white South Africans when he was elected ? Or has ordered others to kill white South Africans solely on the grounds of race since then ?

Evidence please.

Why did the white people leave the country that they'd been born

Simple. Because they were no longer in a position to dominate the over 80% of the population who were not white, and who had been born there too.

Why should they leave?

I can't recall Mandela ordering them to leave.

- dropping apartheid did not make black folks better off in South Africa

Right. Mandela and the A.N.C. were just going to eradicate the effects of over a century of discrimination based on race and half a centurty of an apartheid state dedicated to the underdevelopment and repression of the non-white majority- by economic, legal and military means. They'd just hand out all those bags of gold the apartheid regime was keeping for a rainy day.

Punishing the white folks has not made the black folks better off.

What punishment ? Specific evidence of measures introduced by the Mandela government that targeted whites because they were white.

The solution would be to protect everyone in South Africa - white or black. But, that's not what has happened is it?

Not familiar with South Africa's new legal system, constitution or courts, are you ?

Mandela should suffer the same way the people who've lived in South Africa have had to suffer

So being imprisoned and developing illnesses from imprisonment wasn't enough. Not a very Christian attitude Bennie.

Prior to the dissolution of Apartheid.

Unbelievable and stupid.

And apartheid Black South Africa today

Hysterical, obtuse and insulting. Down to your usual level. Well done!

[molly bloom]

I don't think it's really fair to blame world war II on anyone but Hitler. The consequences of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles and so on were so distant and so unpredictable that it's pointless to assign blame.

Keynes says you're an idiot.

[Jon Miller]

I put Mandela up there with George Washington as the greatest revolutionary leaders of all time.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I put Mandela up there with George Washington as the greatest revolutionary leaders of all time.

It was just unfortunate who was with him while Washington had greats with him.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I wonder where you get your wild lies from.

Here is wikipedia about the truth and reconciliation commission. If it had any problems, it was that it was too lenient on the former members of the apartheid regime.
"The TRC's emphasis on reconciliation is in sharp contrast to the approach taken by the Nuremberg Trials after World War II and other de-Nazification measures. Because of the perceived success[citation needed] of the reconciliatory approach in dealing with human-rights violations after political change either from internal or external factors, other countries have instituted similar commissions, though not always with the same scope or the allowance for charging those currently in power. The success of the "TRC method" versus the "Nuremberg method" of prosecution is open for debate."

"While former president F.W. de Klerk appeared before the commission and reiterated his apology for the suffering caused by apartheid, many black South Africans were angered at amnesty being granted for human rights abuses committed by the apartheid government. The BBC described such criticisms as stemming from a "basic misunderstanding" about the TRC's mandate,[15] which was to uncover the truth about past abuse, using amnesty as a mechanism, rather than to punish past crimes."

It was implemented by Mandela and Tutu.

It was almost ridiculously merciful. Something more like what you would expect out of Sweden or something and not something that you would have expected given the culture of fear, hate and conflict in Africa (especially South Africa).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

If there is any recent world political leader that deserves it, it is Mandela.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I am sorry to keep posting, but to me it feels like Ben is a Nazi apologist.

It is just entirely crazy.

More wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

Mandela personally met with senior figures of the apartheid regime, including Hendrik Verwoerd's widow Betsie Schoombie and the lawyer Percy Yutar; emphasising personal forgiveness and reconciliation, he announced that "courageous people do not fear forgiving, for the sake of peace."[222] He encouraged black South Africans to get behind the previously hated national rugby team, the Springboks, as South Africa hosted the 1995 Rugby World Cup. After the Springboks won an epic final over New Zealand, Mandela presented the trophy to captain Francois Pienaar, an Afrikaner, wearing a Springbok shirt with Pienaar's own number 6 on the back. This was widely seen as a major step in the reconciliation of white and black South Africans; as de Klerk later put it, "Mandela won the hearts of millions of white rugby fans."[223] Mandela's efforts at reconciliation assuaged the fears of whites, but also drew criticism from more militant blacks. His estranged wife, Winnie, accused the ANC of being more interested in appeasing whites than in helping blacks.[224]
More controversially, Mandela oversaw the formation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate crimes committed under apartheid by both the government and the ANC, appointing Desmond Tutu as its chair. To prevent the creation of martyrs, the Commission granted individual amnesties in exchange for testimony of crimes committed during the apartheid era. Dedicated in February 1996, it held two years of hearings detailing rapes, torture, bombings, and assassinations, before issuing its final report in October 1998. Both de Klerk and Mbeki appealed to have parts of the report suppressed, though only de Klerk's appeal was successful.[225] Mandela praised the Commission's work, stating that it "had helped us move away from the past to concentrate on the present and the future".[226]

JM

[regexcellent]

Maybe if Mandela had been followed up by people like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, things would have been okay, but instead South Africa got ****heels like Mbeki and Zuma. It's hard to judge his legacy well in context as a result.

[Fake Boris]

Do you think lower of Bush's legacy because he was followed by Obama?

[regexcellent]

Bush wasn't responsible for a total regime change and reworking of our system of government. It is not comparable. And I actually don't know anything about how good Mandela was as a day-to-day administrator himself. From what I understand he's pretty leftist, so I'm thinking the answer is probably "poor."

[Fake Boris]

So in the end you're defending apartheid.

Classy

[Jon Miller]

There wasn't mass murder of white south africans.

Just that part of the legacy is amazing.

I can't see how anyone can judge him as 'bad'. You can say 'I wish he was perfect', but 'bad'? is sick.

JM

[Jon Miller]

He and his deputy were actually super capitalist compared to what they had been before power.

Remember, ANC is heavily communist... communists make up 1 of the major 3 components of the party and were a significant part of the ANC activities pre 94.

That being said, he was not a great administrator and gave many administration duties to his deputy (and refused a second term).

But that isn't why he is an amazing person completely deserving of the nobel peace price. It wasn't given for his administration abilities. It was for how he engaged in the transition in a peaceful/non-bloody way with mercy.

"The Nobel Peace Prize 1993 was awarded jointly to Nelson Mandela and Frederik Willem de Klerk "for their work for the peaceful termination of the apartheid regime, and for laying the foundations for a new democratic South Africa"

You could say that his not serving a second term was due to recognizing his not being the best at administration.

JM